Rumour Mill

[AILtragic]

Too much sentimentality people. Ross Byrne has reached the latter stage of his career. He's done a huge amount for the club, but we need to move on, as we have enough young talent coming up behind him, deserving of game time and the coaches' attention.

Ross Byrne is 29. He is at least one contract away from the stage of his career where we “need to move on” based solely on his age. He is not there yet.

Cards on the table I think we have at least one if not two too many #10s on the books but Ross is our only senior proven 10. Ciarán is a late bloomer still finding his feet with these new expectations (and doing well), Sam is a prospect and will likely be in international squads with Ciarán and on extended rest periods regularly. That leaves Harry and Charlie, who are probably not at the level and Ross leaving won’t change that.

Let’s also be clear, Ciarán has looked really good in what we have seen of him so far this season in his extended time at 10, but he hasn’t closed the case of being better than Ross yet. Sam looks like he has a significantly higher ceiling than both of them combined, but he still has to prove it.

Unless he wants to leave, and if he does then we shouldn’t stand in his way, we should be trying to keep him. I wouldn’t be losing sleep if we had an injury crisis ahead of the ERC Final and Ross was the last 10 standing. I’d be worried if it was Harry or Charlie. And even now with Ciarán and Sam we don’t yet know how they will manage that. Ross is a good solid player. He isn’t and shouldn’t any more be our #1 but he should be in the mix weekly.

[suisse]

No one is going to sign Ross Byrne. Think you're being really niave about this.

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and more professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

[curates_egg]

No one is going to sign Ross Byrne. Think you're being really niave about this.

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and fewer professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

Yeah, that's patent nonsense and typical of the hyperbole and polarised debate on any subject these days.
The reality is that Ross would walk into the starting 10 booth in four or five Premiership clubs.
He's an outstanding player, who has been involved in some of the most successful sides over the past decade.

[AILtragic]

I think this is going from one extreme to another when it is going from “he has to go” to he’s “outstanding”. Neither are accurate in my opinion.

[DublinJack]

No one is going to sign Ross Byrne. Think you're being really niave about this.

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and more professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

...".more professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995."

I knew ross was getting on a bit, but fcuk me, he's lasting well.... (or he made his debut pretty early !)

[blockhead]

No one is going to sign Ross Byrne. Think you're being really niave about this.

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and more professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

...".more professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995."

I knew ross was getting on a bit, but fcuk me, he's lasting well.... (or he made his debut pretty early !)

He certainly runs like he made his debut in 1995.

[paddyor]

No one is going to sign Ross Byrne. Think you're being really niave about this.

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and fewer professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

Yeah, that's patent nonsense and typical of the hyperbole and polarised debate on any subject these days.
The reality is that Ross would walk into the starting 10 booth in four or five Premiership clubs.
He's an outstanding player, who has been involved in some of the most successful sides over the past decade.

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

[curates_egg]

Ross Byrne is a year younger than Billy Burns, has 3x the number of international caps and fewer professional appearances since Byrne made his Leinster debut in 1995. Not to mention he is a better player. He would be welcome at Ulster, Munster, and Connacht. If Leinster want to keep a player, you can be sure he'd be wanted elsewhere.

Yeah, that's patent nonsense and typical of the hyperbole and polarised debate on any subject these days.
The reality is that Ross would walk into the starting 10 booth in four or five Premiership clubs.
He's an outstanding player, who has been involved in some of the most successful sides over the past decade.

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

Ah, sorry.
You're basically meant the opposite of what I understood.
Yeah, I think he will command a serious sum in the Premiership.
I would love to think we could put together a package to keep him - we won't be able to compete on salary alone.
But there's no chance he's going to another province, who in any case can't outbid us.

[ronk]

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

The defining event in Ross Byrne's career off the field is that he publicly resisted Nucifora/Schmidt pressure to move, took his medicine, was proved right.

Moving to another province is a step backwards for him, and he's unlikely to take it. None of them want him enough. They can't offer more money, so if a province wants you but doesn't love you, they only want you because you're cheap.

Harry is Ross's little brother. He was paying attention at the time. These are two lads in Ireland who'd probably have the strongest natural scepticism of someone telling them to move provinces.

Everything points to him taking an offer outside Ireland if he gets one he likes.

[FtD]

Yeah, that's patent nonsense and typical of the hyperbole and polarised debate on any subject these days.
The reality is that Ross would walk into the starting 10 booth in four or five Premiership clubs.
He's an outstanding player, who has been involved in some of the most successful sides over the past decade.

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

Ah, sorry.
You're basically meant the opposite of what I understood.
Yeah, I think he will command a serious sum in the Premiership.
I would love to think we could put together a package to keep him - we won't be able to compete on salary alone.
But there's no chance he's going to another province, who in any case can't outbid us.

Does anyone know how the "can't outbid us" thing actually works in practice?

Does that mean if, (not saying we would necessarily, but if), we extended an absolutely derisory offer to a guy who we didn't necessarily rate, but one of the other provinces would see as a useful piece, they can't improve on that offer at all?

I know, because of Humphreys' role, there likely is a level of IRFU oversight which mitigates this, but would still love to know in practice a little more about how it works.

[paddyor]

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

Ah, sorry.
You're basically meant the opposite of what I understood.
Yeah, I think he will command a serious sum in the Premiership.
I would love to think we could put together a package to keep him - we won't be able to compete on salary alone.
But there's no chance he's going to another province, who in any case can't outbid us.

Does anyone know how the "can't outbid us" thing actually works in practice?

Does that mean if, (not saying we would necessarily, but if), we extended an absolutely derisory offer to a guy who we didn't necessarily rate, but one of the other provinces would see as a useful piece, they can't improve on that offer at all?

I know, because of Humphreys' role, there likely is a level of IRFU oversight which mitigates this, but would still love to know in practice a little more about how it works.

Apart from it being a bad look, like firing a player by text type of bad look, no I don't think it works like that. Dooley was on 3rd/4th choice prop money at Leinster and Connacht made a case they'd have him in their 23 so were allowed outbid Leinster for him. From what we know there's levels to the contracts(Academy, Development, Senior, CC) with the union contributing the first 50k, 90k and 110k so I'm guessing it's done on a band basis. The WRU tried to introduce some kind of band system in the mid teens that the Regions subsequently undermined and eventually destroyed.

[Observingprop123]

I meant in Ireland. He'll be too expensive for them and with no prospect of going a CC

Ah, sorry.
You're basically meant the opposite of what I understood.
Yeah, I think he will command a serious sum in the Premiership.
I would love to think we could put together a package to keep him - we won't be able to compete on salary alone.
But there's no chance he's going to another province, who in any case can't outbid us.

Does anyone know how the "can't outbid us" thing actually works in practice?

Does that mean if, (not saying we would necessarily, but if), we extended an absolutely derisory offer to a guy who we didn't necessarily rate, but one of the other provinces would see as a useful piece, they can't improve on that offer at all?

I know, because of Humphreys' role, there likely is a level of IRFU oversight which mitigates this, but would still love to know in practice a little more about how it works.

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

[FtD]

Ah, sorry.
You're basically meant the opposite of what I understood.
Yeah, I think he will command a serious sum in the Premiership.
I would love to think we could put together a package to keep him - we won't be able to compete on salary alone.
But there's no chance he's going to another province, who in any case can't outbid us.

Does anyone know how the "can't outbid us" thing actually works in practice?

Does that mean if, (not saying we would necessarily, but if), we extended an absolutely derisory offer to a guy who we didn't necessarily rate, but one of the other provinces would see as a useful piece, they can't improve on that offer at all?

I know, because of Humphreys' role, there likely is a level of IRFU oversight which mitigates this, but would still love to know in practice a little more about how it works.

Apart from it being a bad look, like firing a player by text type of bad look, no I don't think it works like that. Dooley was on 3rd/4th choice prop money at Leinster and Connacht made a case they'd have him in their 23 so were allowed outbid Leinster for him. From what we know there's levels to the contracts(Academy, Development, Senior, CC) with the union contributing the first 50k, 90k and 110k so I'm guessing it's done on a band basis. The WRU tried to introduce some kind of band system in the mid teens that the Regions subsequently undermined and eventually destroyed.

Yeah, that makes absolute sense. Thanks.

[Serb]

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

[naraic]

Apart from it being a bad look, like firing a player by text type of bad look, no I don't think it works like that. Dooley was on 3rd/4th choice prop money at Leinster and Connacht made a case they'd have him in their 23 so were allowed outbid Leinster for him.

Yeah. Nucifora could involve sometimes. That's one moment I think he was right to push someone away from Leinster.

I believe he had to interfere to allow Connacht to offer a full contract to Illo when he was in our academy.

It goes further back but we were allowed outbid Connacht for Jamie Hagan once when he had a contract offer abroad on the table. Ie once it stopped being a choice between us and Connacht and there was a bigger bidder in the game.

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

The general policy is to underpay and hang international bonuses out for players.

Oh you just need to up your performance a little and then you will be in the international team. If you make every 23 there could be bonuses of 250k a year.

[kff15]

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

I believe the tax back is claimable if they go abroad too

[naraic]

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

I believe the tax back is claimable if they go abroad too

Yes but only on the 10 highest paid years they worked in Ireland.

You used to have to retire in Ireland but you no longer do. Just be resident in an EU country in the year you retire. I imagine Rob Kearney probabaly hurrying back at the end of his time in Super Rugby to be tax resident in Ireland.

[curates_egg]

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

I believe the tax back is claimable if they go abroad too

Yes but not the tax paid abroad, so what Serb is paying still holds true.

The net take-home of a 150,000 salary here (following the post retirement tax rebate) would be equivalent to the net take-home of a much higher salary elsewhere. 250,000 sounds like a reasonable comparison.
Long story longer, in order to outbid an Irish province that is offering X amount, a Premiership side will have to offer a gross salary of 30-40% more, depending on the amount.

If we are offering Ross 250,000 (which sounds ballpark upper limit), an English club would have to offer over EUR 400,000 (330k pounds).
Given the state of finances of most English clubs, I would say it is not a done-deal that we lose him based on salary offer.

[The Doc]

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

I believe the tax back is claimable if they go abroad too

Yes but not the tax paid abroad, so what Serb is paying still holds true.

The net take-home of a 150,000 salary here (following the post retirement tax rebate) would be equivalent to the net take-home of a much higher salary elsewhere. 250,000 sounds like a reasonable comparison.
Long story longer, in order to outbid an Irish province that is offering X amount, a Premiership side will have to offer a gross salary of 30-40% more, depending on the amount.

If we are offering Ross 250,000 (which sounds ballpark upper limit), an English club would have to offer over EUR 400,000 (330k pounds).
Given the state of finances of most English clubs, I would say it is not a done-deal that we lose him based on salary offer.

He can bank the historic tax reclaim though - so at his age profile, a decent contract offer from the UK (especially if it was more than 2 years) might be weighed up against an OK (maybe not as high as current salary) 2 year offer here.

On paying less - from what has been rumoured around, I think it's true that the high end guys get paid less than the potential oversees but they have the advantage of time management and the tax benefit. But I think the IRFU have been smart about it - they know the real danger is the pipeline and young fringe players - so the guys just on professional contracts and the non-central contracted players are probably getting more than they'd be offered - especially in the UK where the almost 40% are on less than £100k on the last report and only 6% are on £350k and up. That, along with having to give up on international potential, means there's very little movement on the main "tier 2" players

[paddyor]

A lot of guys aren't paid well from what I've heard.

Another advantage Irish provinces have is the fact that sportspeople can claim huge portions of their tax back after they retire. Means that just to match a €150k salary here, you might have to bid €250k from abroad.

Salaries are likely a good bit lower here but are in effect worth more than higher sums abroad.

That's not true. The tax back on a 100K salary is 16k(100k*40%*40%). 150k being 24k and you only get that after between 1 and 10 years so on PV basis its maybe 20k in todays terms.

I find the OP hard to beleive givne the professional game costs in the IRFU accounts. Maybe splitting hairs about the meaning of well.