A whiff of Cordite

[Oldschoolsocks]

that man is total ghoul,

[blockhead]

ROC fishing with dynamite.

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/1 ... 23880?s=20

What an idiotic take in so many ways.

But at the most basic level, wouldn't they be *more* likely to suffer injuries if it were the more physical league?

I was a stupid tweet tbf. Unless he was wumming, then he's a very bold boy.
The replies below are fun though. They can't seem to make their minds up if the toughness of the Prem is what makes them great or holds them back.

[blockhead]

that man is total ghoul,

Ghoul?
1. An evil spirit or phantom, especially one supposed to rob graves and feed on dead bodies.
2. A person morbidly interested in death or disaster.

Did you mean Gowl?

[Oldschoolsocks]

that man is total ghoul,

Ghoul?
1. An evil spirit or phantom, especially one supposed to rob graves and feed on dead bodies.
2. A person morbidly interested in death or disaster.

Did you mean Gowl?

I'm not sure Blocky, maybe tool is a better word?

[ronk]

Wasnt so funny watching Underhill out cold after the Henshaw tackle. We were behind the goaline no more than 10 yards.

Not the type of comment a serious journalist should be making

In poor taste alright. Both injuries potentially career ending with possible longterm negative health effects. If a UK journalist had made light of Leavy's knee smash, we'd be up in arms, and rightly so.

Wouldn't be tolerated in most forums. Completely at odds with the spirit of the game and 100% wrong in his assessment of the players and incidents.

[paddyor]

ROC fishing with dynamite.

https://twitter.com/RuaidhriOC/status/1 ... 23880?s=20

What an idiotic take in so many ways.

But at the most basic level, wouldn't they be *more* likely to suffer injuries if it were the more physical league?

I was a stupid tweet tbf. Unless he was wumming, then he's a very bold boy.
The replies below are fun though. They can't seem to make their minds up if the toughness of the Prem is what makes them great or holds them back.

It's a wum. The GP fanboys have all kind of shifting narratives about why the GP is such a tough league and how it prepares them for test rugby etc. It's a tough league but the quality of the teams in it has declined markedly over the pas 5 years IMO.

[riocard911]

RO'G blowing off on OTB this morning again about how abysmally uncompetitive the URC is in comparison to the Incroyable TOP 14 and The Incredible Power of Prem. Someone needs to give the jukebox a kick....

[RoboProp]

RO'G blowing off on OTB this morning again about how abysmally uncompetitive the URC is in comparison to the Incroyable TOP 14 and The Incredible Power of Prem. Someone needs to give the jukebox a kick....

You would expect him to big up the TOP 14 as they keep him in croissants and what not, it just seems like the cool thing to do to kick the URC and its previous incarnations. Saying that if it has rolled around to the time that RO'G is laying the boot in, then it's probably not the cool thing to do anymore

[ronk]

RO'G blowing off on OTB this morning again about how abysmally uncompetitive the URC is in comparison to the Incroyable TOP 14 and The Incredible Power of Prem. Someone needs to give the jukebox a kick....

You would expect him to big up the TOP 14 as they keep him in croissants and what not, it just seems like the cool thing to do to kick the URC and its previous incarnations. Saying that if it has rolled around to the time that RO'G is laying the boot in, then it's probably not the cool thing to do anymore

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2006/ ... ncup200607



I knew I remembered him saying the opposite

[blockhead]

Brilliant Ronk!
6 Heinos wins later, he can hardly say the URC is now worse than in 2006.

[Dexter]

RO'G blowing off on OTB this morning again about how abysmally uncompetitive the URC is in comparison to the Incroyable TOP 14 and The Incredible Power of Prem. Someone needs to give the jukebox a kick....

This sums up why I've totally stopped listening to OTB now. It's rubbish, never anything insightful or informative IMHO

[dropkick]

I doubt ROG bothers to watch much URC. He is busying running his own team which means he watches plenty of top 14 every week. There's only so much rugby one can watch.


Is the premiership better than the URC. As a product yes because of the closeness of the teams but in terms of quality the URC is better. Wait until the 4 SA sides are fully firing. They should make the URC much stronger overall.

[paddyor]

I doubt ROG bothers to watch much URC. He is busying running his own team which means he watches plenty of top 14 every week. There's only so much rugby one can watch.


Is the premiership better than the URC. As a product yes because of the closeness of the teams but in terms of quality the URC is better. Wait until the 4 SA sides are fully firing. They should make the URC much stronger overall.

Yeah he doesn't really follow teh URC at all. There wasn't supposed to be any matches during the test windows.

O’Gara went on to say that due to fewer matches being played on the European stage, there’s not as many quality matches for provincial coaches to give their young talent a taste of high-level rugby.

‘When it goes to Six Nations time, you’re playing against teams that are missing other Six Nations [internationals],’ he continued.

‘The mismatches that had been happening in previous years […] players develop better when they are playing in tighter games.

‘It’s hard in Ireland [to use your squad]. They have the Champions Cup, but after that, I don’t think the URC is the model at the minute.’

His thinking is a bit muddled IMO. The reason a young player cand evelop int he T14 is that they get their shot with the espoirs(which the T14 is notorious for. We're losing that in the URC and I think it will prove a mistake as the GP goes in the opposite direction with a reducing salary cap. The big driver of that was the welsh and it hasn't made a blind bit of difference to their predicament(they don't have money or players for 4 competitive regions).

WRT Europe, we'll have the same number of h & A games. All Connacht had to do was win one game. NOthing we can do with the organizers degrading the group stages as challenge.

[Laighin Break]

WRT Europe, we'll have the same number of h & A games. All Connacht had to do was win one game. Nothing we can do with the organizers degrading the group stages as challenge.

That's one way to remove "dead rubbers" - half of the teams that qualified from Pool B won only 1 game.

[munster#1]

Is ROG wrong??

I would love to believe that Munster play in the best league in the world, but I think it would be foolish to think that it is, or is even near it.

Granted, the URC teams generally do well in the HC, but that does not mean that week in, week out we see the best rugby in the URC.

The URC is a very lopsided league, with the best teams being remarkable better than the large chasing pack.
Additionally, we regularly see severely under strength teams racking up TBP wins against other under strength teams.

The HC is often incorrectly thrown around as a barometer of how good the URC is, but just look at how few games the best players actually play each season in the URC.
Leinster would generally play around 23 league games a season (bit less lately) but the likes of Furlong, Sexton, Henshaw, Healy and Ryan rarely, If ever, make double digit appearances in the league, and often play more games in Europe than they do in the League.

If it was a truly competitive league, then there is no way any team could get away with that.

I do hope that the new format will change all that, but for me, right now, ROG is correct.

[Ruckedtobits]

Is ROG wrong??

I would love to believe that Munster play in the best league in the world, but I think it would be foolish to think that it is, or is even near it.

Granted, the URC teams generally do well in the HC, but that does not mean that week in, week out we see the best rugby in the URC.

The URC is a very lopsided league, with the best teams being remarkable better than the large chasing pack.
Additionally, we regularly see severely under strength teams racking up TBP wins against other under strength teams.

The HC is often incorrectly thrown around as a barometer of how good the URC is, but just look at how few games the best players actually play each season in the URC.
Leinster would generally play around 23 league games a season (bit less lately) but the likes of Furlong, Sexton, Henshaw, Healy and Ryan rarely, If ever, make double digit appearances in the league, and often play more games in Europe than they do in the League.

If it was a truly competitive league, then there is no way any team could get away with that.

I do hope that the new format will change all that, but for me, right now, ROG is correct.

A couple of years ago Midi Olympique did an analysis between the three Leagues and in particular compared various factors:

1. The development of young players on a rolling 3-year basis;
2. The margins of victory on average across fixtures;
3. The % of league games in which Clubs played their strongest available team;
4. The % of international players, on average, in each week's games.

Interestingly, they assessed the PRL as being "strongest" in factor 2 (lowest average margin) and factor 3 (strongest available team most often). Pro14, as was, was second in three categories and first in none. Top14 was best in development of young players and % of international players. This was attributed to a) many teams played 'espoirs' in away games and b) French Club Squads had more internationals from more countries than either of the other Leagues.

There is no acceptable matrix by which you can assess relative strength of Leagues, except Heineken Cup fixtures. In general, my perception is that URC (mostly Irish)teams have come our well from such comparisons.

[ronk]

English clubs play a lot of rugby. This season it's 24 games + knockouts for the league, 4 games + knockouts for the Premiership cup and then you have Heineken Cup and Internationals.

I don't want much of that rugby but I don't believe that it's not a huge step down.

URC have reduced the number of games being played in an effort to address oft mentioned concerns about the quality of the rugby. Top level internationals in Ireland (and Wales and Scotland) have long played relatively few games to focus on playing those games at a higher level and to not miss so many games through injury.

It's been such a disrupted season that it's hard to know what the effects of the new policy are. It'll balance things back for the smaller squads (Connacht already showing benefit).

I'd rather see Jimmy O'Brien tearing it up scoring 4 tries than Hugo Keenan at 3/4 pace for the last 20 minutes of 30 games a season. A lot of the Wasps lads really dropped the effort at the weekend.

Leinster get their prep wrong every so often but they get exposed quickly at URC level, even when we beat Zebre 3-0 it was still a slog to get back. Leinster work really hard most games, and when we fall short it can often be big enough names that are part of the problem.

[Oldschool]

Is ROG wrong??

I would love to believe that Munster play in the best league in the world, but I think it would be foolish to think that it is, or is even near it.

Granted, the URC teams generally do well in the HC, but that does not mean that week in, week out we see the best rugby in the URC.

The URC is a very lopsided league, with the best teams being remarkable better than the large chasing pack.
Additionally, we regularly see severely under strength teams racking up TBP wins against other under strength teams.

The HC is often incorrectly thrown around as a barometer of how good the URC is, but just look at how few games the best players actually play each season in the URC.
Leinster would generally play around 23 league games a season (bit less lately) but the likes of Furlong, Sexton, Henshaw, Healy and Ryan rarely, If ever, make double digit appearances in the league, and often play more games in Europe than they do in the League.

If it was a truly competitive league, then there is no way any team could get away with that.

I do hope that the new format will change all that, but for me, right now, ROG is correct.

A couple of years ago Midi Olympique did an analysis between the three Leagues and in particular compared various factors:

1. The development of young players on a rolling 3-year basis;
2. The margins of victory on average across fixtures;
3. The % of league games in which Clubs played their strongest available team;
4. The % of international players, on average, in each week's games.

Interestingly, they assessed the PRL as being "strongest" in factor 2 (lowest average margin) and factor 3 (strongest available team most often). Pro14, as was, was second in three categories and first in none. Top14 was best in development of young players and % of international players. This was attributed to a) many teams played 'espoirs' in away games and b) French Club Squads had more internationals from more countries than either of the other Leagues.

There is no acceptable matrix by which you can assess relative strength of Leagues, except Heineken Cup fixtures. In general, my perception is that URC (mostly Irish)teams have come our well from such comparisons.

Two good posts.
Another point which is reflected in player development stats and which certainly applies to Ireland is the fact watching young players coming through has it's own appeal for fans.
It's something that Erasmus and Van Graan maybe failed to identify.
M1, as a fan, has often said he loves watching the young players getting their chances and it's the same in all the provinces.
There's is also the very important matter of finance and I've no idea how you factor that into how the different leagues are organised and their entertainment value.

[munster#1]

Is ROG wrong??

I would love to believe that Munster play in the best league in the world, but I think it would be foolish to think that it is, or is even near it.

Granted, the URC teams generally do well in the HC, but that does not mean that week in, week out we see the best rugby in the URC.

The URC is a very lopsided league, with the best teams being remarkable better than the large chasing pack.
Additionally, we regularly see severely under strength teams racking up TBP wins against other under strength teams.

The HC is often incorrectly thrown around as a barometer of how good the URC is, but just look at how few games the best players actually play each season in the URC.
Leinster would generally play around 23 league games a season (bit less lately) but the likes of Furlong, Sexton, Henshaw, Healy and Ryan rarely, If ever, make double digit appearances in the league, and often play more games in Europe than they do in the League.

If it was a truly competitive league, then there is no way any team could get away with that.

I do hope that the new format will change all that, but for me, right now, ROG is correct.

A couple of years ago Midi Olympique did an analysis between the three Leagues and in particular compared various factors:

1. The development of young players on a rolling 3-year basis;
2. The margins of victory on average across fixtures;
3. The % of league games in which Clubs played their strongest available team;
4. The % of international players, on average, in each week's games.

Interestingly, they assessed the PRL as being "strongest" in factor 2 (lowest average margin) and factor 3 (strongest available team most often). Pro14, as was, was second in three categories and first in none. Top14 was best in development of young players and % of international players. This was attributed to a) many teams played 'espoirs' in away games and b) French Club Squads had more internationals from more countries than either of the other Leagues.

There is no acceptable matrix by which you can assess relative strength of Leagues, except Heineken Cup fixtures. In general, my perception is that URC (mostly Irish)teams have come our well from such comparisons.

Two good posts.
Another point which is reflected in player development stats and which certainly applies to Ireland is the fact watching young players coming through has it's own appeal for fans.
It's something that Erasmus and Van Graan maybe failed to identify.
M1, as a fan, has often said he loves watching the young players getting their chances and it's the same in all the provinces.
There's is also the very important matter of finance and I've no idea how you factor that into how the different leagues are organised and their entertainment value.

Whilst I would disagree with you on Van Graan’s development process, as I think that it is one of his few redeeming factors, I do feel that discussing it here would detract from the conversation.

You are correct, I do like to watch young players not only get chances, but also take those chances.
For me, this is where our league comes into its own.
The URC imo is a strong development league which allows clubs to compete in the HC on a regular basis, and produces a steady flow of internationals for each country involved.

This use of the league for this purpose is what lowers the quality of the league. It is deduced to a league where the bigger clubs don’t have to field anything close to full strength teams to make the knockouts.

[wixfjord]

The Top14 is by far and away a bigger and better quality league than the URC. Not sure how that can be argued.

(For anyone who wants to watch high quality rugby TV production by the way, try tune into Canal's Saturday Top14 live programme. It's incredibly well produced and really makes a spectacle of the 2-3 games that are shown).

The Prem has declined I think for a variety of reasons, but it also means more to most fans and clubs than the Heineken Cup does to URC clubs.

Once we get a proper year where the SA clubs are involved and engaged then that might change.