Leinster v Bath Sat 11th December 3.15 Aviva

[paddyor]

Not good craic at all really was it. We were ahead of the clock for most of the first 30mins then lost interest. Restarts were maddening. Coughed up 3 on the trot? It’s a December though. , so too worried about us not gaming the system.

[CiaranIrl]

I'm always confounded by people feeling embarrassed for other people for their thoughts I may not agree with the sentiments but embarrassed by.

You know the way All Blacks fans lose their mind if their team lose a game, and then it's immediately cut x player and fire y coach? And the rest of the world laugh at them and think they're incredibly annoying. Well I'd find that embarrassing if I was from there.

[riocard911]

I'm always confounded by people feeling embarrassed for other people for their thoughts I may not agree with the sentiments but embarrassed by.

You know the way All Blacks fans lose their mind if their team lose a game, and then it's immediately cut x player and fire y coach? And the rest of the world laugh at them and think they're incredibly annoying. Well I'd find that embarrassing if I was from there.

I mustn't be part of "the rest of the world" then, cos I neither laugh at them nor do I think they're "incredibly annoying". The Kiwis are the supporters of the greatest team in the history of rugby - period. The All Blacks set high standards and fulfill them. Passionate - even at times hysterical - fandom is part of that. Leinster aspire to be the NZ of European club rugby and so do some of their fans. I've never once felt embarrassed for anything any of my fellow commenters posted on here - not even Munster#1!!! All good, as long as people aren't verbally knocking lumps out of each other, IMO.

[fourthirtythree]

Yep - like watching an Irish QF supporting the other team! Game over by the end of the first quarter.

Harsh.

That's a pretty sick burn.

[outcast eddie]

On second watch, we stopped playing after Kelleher's try on 47 mins, with the score-line at 38-13 and the bench front row came on. This was probably a pre-determined plan and perhaps indicated a switch in mindset from beating Bath to beating Montpellier.

There followed a very poor 4 minutes of play by Leinster with a JL knock-on and a scrum penalty that gave Bath a 5m line out with a disallowed try. Bath seemed to get some motivation from this passage of play while Leinster's disinterest only increased.

Ross B was very good and accurate but without any highlights.

Garry Ringrose seemed to have a below average game for him.

Ross Molony, not Larmour, looks at fault for the 1st Bath try. A more athletic lock would have made that tackle.

Frawley sparky throughout and is a HC level out half.

Dev's restart clanger on 56 mins was awful. He can expect opposition teams to target him like this in future in the hope he will make similar mistakes.

For 47 minutes we were full on Leinster, then switched off when this ceased to be a competition.

[Fireworks]

It might be just me but I think there are too many mistakes from us when you consider how poor the opposition are. If they had been more accurate we could have been on for 100 points.

not just you.

replacements coming on disrupts the flow a little but we have been a tad sloppy. Fair play to bath for not rolling over, they are trying their best to compete despite the obvious gulf in quality.

On mature reflexion I still think it was poor that we didn't put up a bigger score. BUT it wasn't our first 23 and we were always comfortable so I wonder if the plan was to get the bonus point in the bag quickly and then take it easy as we have bigger matches coming up. Sometimes I think I expect too much from every game.

[wixfjord]

I don't know how you can make the prediction that Frawley is a HC level 10?

Hasn't played there for yonks and we pretty much fell apart for the last 20 with him there.

HC level 12 maybe.

[LeinsterLeader]

I don't know how you can make the prediction that Frawley is a HC level 10?

Hasn't played there for yonks and we pretty much fell apart for the last 20 with him there.

HC level 12 maybe.

To be honest I think some people were overly impressed with his line breaks to be honest (which were impressive btw) but I thought his decision making in the last 20 left a bit to be desired. I thought on at least 2 occasions if he given the pass we'd have scored. Instead he went himself and we were turned over. In those moments I thought he played more like a 12 then a 10. In fairness it must be hard to change your mindset mid game.

[wixfjord]

I don't know how you can make the prediction that Frawley is a HC level 10?

Hasn't played there for yonks and we pretty much fell apart for the last 20 with him there.

HC level 12 maybe.

To be honest I think some people were overly impressed with his line breaks to be honest (which were impressive btw) but I thought his decision making in the last 20 left a bit to be desired. I thought on at least 2 occasions if he given the pass we'd have scored. Instead he went himself and we were turned over. In those moments I thought he played more like a 12 then a 10. In fairness it must be hard to change your mindset mid game.

Yes, I think if Harry came on and did what Frawley is being praised for he'd have been castigated.

[TMC]

Bench didn’t perform to expectations, starting XV did. Player management and keeping people fresh for Friday more important that putting 60+ points on Bath. Thought it was smart management personally, the disappointing thing was the impact from 16-23. Sub front row is a significant step down Sheehan apart IMHO. Missed JR & RH. Lack of heft in the second row remains an issue, unbelievable servant, but Father Time looking like he has caught up with Dev.
Will James Ryan be available for next week does anyone know?

[LeinsterLeader]

Okay guys, I've never been inside a scrum in my life, but its hard from a logistical stand point to see that our current scrum problems are down to the ballast in the 2nd row (as some hear claim). If we were getting pushed around the park I'd see the point but for the most part, in the last three matches the scrums aren't even getting started and the ref's have fallen back on the old policy in these cases to award alternate penalties, from one team to the other.

I know there's a few lads here know scrummaging well, so any thoughts on what's going on? and if it is down to the second rows, how are they causing it?

#EveryDaysASchoolDay

[JohnB]

I was disappointed by the easy 'ins' to the game that we continued to give a poor Bath team during the match through the concession of needless, silly penalties. A better team than Bath would have made more of them. Our discipline really needs to improve in regard to penalties given away.

[Dexter]

I don't know how you can make the prediction that Frawley is a HC level 10?

Hasn't played there for yonks and we pretty much fell apart for the last 20 with him there.

HC level 12 maybe.

To be honest I think some people were overly impressed with his line breaks to be honest (which were impressive btw) but I thought his decision making in the last 20 left a bit to be desired. I thought on at least 2 occasions if he given the pass we'd have scored. Instead he went himself and we were turned over. In those moments I thought he played more like a 12 then a 10. In fairness it must be hard to change your mindset mid game.

This. The one I remember particularly was at the very end of the game, right in front of us. The pass goes to JL and it's a try, instead the ball is tucked under the arm and there's a cut back inside, with a turnover a few seconds later.

[Flash Gordon]

Jeez the moanin on here, yid swear we'ed lost.
We beat the All Blacks, we'll be fine.

Believe there was a post match bollocking administered. We won the game comfortably against a very very poor team. The standards we set are to be the best you can be on the pitch at all times and we switched off at times at the weekend. Also there may be a material difference as a consequence if points come into play for the next round. Bath were so bad we should really have but 60 points on the them and we should definitely not have conceded 20.

[Ruckedtobits]

Okay guys, I've never been inside a scrum in my life, but its hard from a logistical stand point to see that our current scrum problems are down to the ballast in the 2nd row (as some hear claim). If we were getting pushed around the park I'd see the point but for the most part, in the last three matches the scrums aren't even getting started and the ref's have fallen back on the old policy in these cases to award alternate penalties, from one team to the other.

I know there's a few lads here know scrummaging well, so any thoughts on what's going on? and if it is down to the second rows, how are they causing it?

#EveryDaysASchoolDay

Essentially there is a huge pressure coming through each scrum, even before the Referee calls "set". There is a combination of strength, power and mechanics required from the second-rows to ensure the scrum is solid, low and generating power. In addition, there are different requirements of the right-side, tight-head second row and the loose-head, left side second-row. The latter has two backsides to push on whilst the right-side second-row must channel all his power through his right shoulder.

At the highest level, strength and power generation are essential, not just good mechanics. Ross Molony has good mechanics but he probably doesn't generate the same power as James Ryan or Dev Toner, partially because of his actual weight but also because of his physical strength. Likewise Ryan Baird is rangy and young, probably not yet grown into his mature strength and doesn't appear to generate the same mechanical strength in the scrum as others.

So, technique is important but raw power, weight and strength are absolutely vital as is the concentration to optimise all three components at the required moments at scrum-time. If a pair of second-rows, working in absolute harmony with their front and back-row colleagues can get their timing and effort right on a particular scrum, they may overcome a weight difference of 30 / 50 kg. However, if they are required to work right on the edge of perfect to achieve this, because of lack of weight and dependence on technique, they can just as easily be turned over & driven backwards if they lose concentration for even a moment.

Apologies for the long-winded reply but explaining and improving a scrum is a long-term project. You may get reasonable gains from initial organisation, but really sustainable progress takes time, hard work and repetition - think 20 by 5 repeats for each of 5 different sessions over a fortnight against live opposition, mostly because there are so many different moving parts.

Some players are innately great scrummagers, think Brad Thorn or Leo Cullen. Some big lumps never get there, it's not just size but mechanics and timing and also co-ordination. I'm a fan of our Welsh scrum coach and know that he has the expertise to improve our scrum and the output of our second-rows in particular. But it can't just be switched on. It requires repetitive hard work and multiple training sessions involving many others. There are always reasons why scrum sessions are postponed or shortened and that's the reality of professional rugby or elite rugby at any level.

[Flash Gordon]

Okay guys, I've never been inside a scrum in my life, but its hard from a logistical stand point to see that our current scrum problems are down to the ballast in the 2nd row (as some hear claim). If we were getting pushed around the park I'd see the point but for the most part, in the last three matches the scrums aren't even getting started and the ref's have fallen back on the old policy in these cases to award alternate penalties, from one team to the other.

I know there's a few lads here know scrummaging well, so any thoughts on what's going on? and if it is down to the second rows, how are they causing it?

#EveryDaysASchoolDay

Essentially there is a huge pressure coming through each scrum, even before the Referee calls "set". There is a combination of strength, power and mechanics required from the second-rows to ensure the scrum is solid, low and generating power. In addition, there are different requirements of the right-side, tight-head second row and the loose-head, left side second-row. The latter has two backsides to push on whilst the right-side second-row must channel all his power through his right shoulder.

At the highest level, strength and power generation are essential, not just good mechanics. Ross Molony has good mechanics but he probably doesn't generate the same power as James Ryan or Dev Toner, partially because of his actual weight but also because of his physical strength. Likewise Ryan Baird is rangy and young, probably not yet grown into his mature strength and doesn't appear to generate the same mechanical strength in the scrum as others.

So, technique is important but raw power, weight and strength are absolutely vital as is the concentration to optimise all three components at the required moments at scrum-time. If a pair of second-rows, working in absolute harmony with their front and back-row colleagues can get their timing and effort right on a particular scrum, they may overcome a weight difference of 30 / 50 kg. However, if they are required to work right on the edge of perfect to achieve this, because of lack of weight and dependence on technique, they can just as easily be turned over & driven backwards if they lose concentration for even a moment.

Apologies for the long-winded reply but explaining and improving a scrum is a long-term project. You may get reasonable gains from initial organisation, but really sustainable progress takes time, hard work and repetition - think 20 by 5 repeats for each of 5 different sessions over a fortnight against live opposition, mostly because there are so many different moving parts.

Some players are innately great scrummagers, think Brad Thorn or Leo Cullen. Some big lumps never get there, it's not just size but mechanics and timing and also co-ordination. I'm a fan of our Welsh scrum coach and know that he has the expertise to improve our scrum and the output of our second-rows in particular. But it can't just be switched on. It requires repetitive hard work and multiple training sessions involving many others. There are always reasons why scrum sessions are postponed or shortened and that's the reality of professional rugby or elite rugby at any level.

I remember Mike Ross talking about this saying that he had never felt as much power coming through from behind when Brad Thorn was playing for us.

Excellent post!

[Oldschool]

RTB has pretty much explained.
NZ did some research into the scrum.
FR, SR and no. 8 generate 90% of the power in an 8 man scrum.
Apparently the shape of a props shoulders makes a difference. Sloped shoulders being better than square.
Nowadays there are no doubt some technical ways of determining the thrust from the engine room
But it's easy enough to establish how good a scrummager a SR is or at least which players are the better scrummagers.
From experience having a decent arse to put your shoulder against is a big help.
Garlic, onions and Guinness should be discouraged also.

[LeinsterLeader]

Okay guys, I've never been inside a scrum in my life, but its hard from a logistical stand point to see that our current scrum problems are down to the ballast in the 2nd row (as some hear claim). If we were getting pushed around the park I'd see the point but for the most part, in the last three matches the scrums aren't even getting started and the ref's have fallen back on the old policy in these cases to award alternate penalties, from one team to the other.

I know there's a few lads here know scrummaging well, so any thoughts on what's going on? and if it is down to the second rows, how are they causing it?

#EveryDaysASchoolDay

Essentially there is a huge pressure coming through each scrum, even before the Referee calls "set". There is a combination of strength, power and mechanics required from the second-rows to ensure the scrum is solid, low and generating power. In addition, there are different requirements of the right-side, tight-head second row and the loose-head, left side second-row. The latter has two backsides to push on whilst the right-side second-row must channel all his power through his right shoulder.

At the highest level, strength and power generation are essential, not just good mechanics. Ross Molony has good mechanics but he probably doesn't generate the same power as James Ryan or Dev Toner, partially because of his actual weight but also because of his physical strength. Likewise Ryan Baird is rangy and young, probably not yet grown into his mature strength and doesn't appear to generate the same mechanical strength in the scrum as others.

So, technique is important but raw power, weight and strength are absolutely vital as is the concentration to optimise all three components at the required moments at scrum-time. If a pair of second-rows, working in absolute harmony with their front and back-row colleagues can get their timing and effort right on a particular scrum, they may overcome a weight difference of 30 / 50 kg. However, if they are required to work right on the edge of perfect to achieve this, because of lack of weight and dependence on technique, they can just as easily be turned over & driven backwards if they lose concentration for even a moment.

Apologies for the long-winded reply but explaining and improving a scrum is a long-term project. You may get reasonable gains from initial organisation, but really sustainable progress takes time, hard work and repetition - think 20 by 5 repeats for each of 5 different sessions over a fortnight against live opposition, mostly because there are so many different moving parts.

Some players are innately great scrummagers, think Brad Thorn or Leo Cullen. Some big lumps never get there, it's not just size but mechanics and timing and also co-ordination. I'm a fan of our Welsh scrum coach and know that he has the expertise to improve our scrum and the output of our second-rows in particular. But it can't just be switched on. It requires repetitive hard work and multiple training sessions involving many others. There are always reasons why scrum sessions are postponed or shortened and that's the reality of professional rugby or elite rugby at any level.

Thanks for that RTB. Brilliant explanation.

So with that being said, would you be of the opinion that our reset scrum problems (ie continually not getting started or/and collapsing) look like they're down to the second-row?

[sunshiner1]

by Ruckedtobits

Essentially there is a huge pressure coming through each scrum, even before the Referee calls "set". There is a combination of strength, power and mechanics required from the second-rows to ensure the scrum is solid, low and generating power. In addition, there are different requirements of the right-side, tight-head second row and the loose-head, left side second-row. The latter has two backsides to push on whilst the right-side second-row must channel all his power through his right shoulder.

At the highest level, strength and power generation are essential, not just good mechanics. Ross Molony has good mechanics but he probably doesn't generate the same power as James Ryan or Dev Toner, partially because of his actual weight but also because of his physical strength. Likewise Ryan Baird is rangy and young, probably not yet grown into his mature strength and doesn't appear to generate the same mechanical strength in the scrum as others.

So, technique is important but raw power, weight and strength are absolutely vital as is the concentration to optimise all three components at the required moments at scrum-time. If a pair of second-rows, working in absolute harmony with their front and back-row colleagues can get their timing and effort right on a particular scrum, they may overcome a weight difference of 30 / 50 kg. However, if they are required to work right on the edge of perfect to achieve this, because of lack of weight and dependence on technique, they can just as easily be turned over & driven backwards if they lose concentration for even a moment.

Apologies for the long-winded reply but explaining and improving a scrum is a long-term project. You may get reasonable gains from initial organisation, but really sustainable progress takes time, hard work and repetition - think 20 by 5 repeats for each of 5 different sessions over a fortnight against live opposition, mostly because there are so many different moving parts.

Some players are innately great scrummagers, think Brad Thorn or Leo Cullen. Some big lumps never get there, it's not just size but mechanics and timing and also co-ordination. I'm a fan of our Welsh scrum coach and know that he has the expertise to improve our scrum and the output of our second-rows in particular. But it can't just be switched on. It requires repetitive hard work and multiple training sessions involving many others. There are always reasons why scrum sessions are postponed or shortened and that's the reality of professional rugby or elite rugby at any level.

I always felt that Ireland never got enough out of Bob Casey. Yes he wasn't the fastest around the field but in terms of mass and strength he would have been someone I would have kept around. Makes sense with O'Kelly, POC and DOC been so good but a missed opportunity.

[Ruckedtobits]

Interestingly, the best analysis of live scrums comes from the overhead cameras in places like Twickers, Stade de France etc. We don't have this facility in either RDS OR Aviva.

Anecdotally I've heard some schools coaches in Leinster are using drones during their "friendly games" to get good analysis and feedback on how their scrums are developing in live play and compare this against the true effects in training sessions. Now that is elite coaching. I'm sure if it's useful Leinster could arrange for the same facility.