Leinster Academy 22-23

[backrower8]

Does anyone really care what specific schools these lads went to? More interesting is the ratio of players coming to through the traditional schools path vs club rugby or any other source

I am slightly worried in general by our reliance on a small number of schools. If two schools had a bad run of coaches over a couple of years our academy input could be crippled for 5+ years.

I'm not sure about crippled, it wouldnt be ideal but the talent would still be there, it just may take longer to develop.

Underperforming coaches/ rugby programmes are a risk, but they are replaced or revamped fairly quickly, so you might miss a cycle.

The greater risk to the pro game is a school board / principal making a policy decision to turn away from rugby. This could be for a number of reasons, but law suits/safety is the most likely. Then there is also the risk of contagion, if one school decides to change policy then others may follow - especially if the school is influential in rugby terms (there would be a greater risk of contagion of Belvedere changed tack than if say St Andrew's or St Gerard's did).

For reasons we can't be sure of, Terenure dialed their rugby programme right down in the last 10-15 years with obvious impact on their lack of production of pro players and overall competiveness. This was a loss to Leinster and Irish rugby when you consider that with 700 pupils it is one of the 5 largest rugby playing schools in the country.

That loss is highlighted when you consider how prolific they were in winning 10 SCTs overall, 8 in 25 years (1979-2003) and 5 in 12 years (1992-2003).

The greatest risk of all is reduced adult playing numbers driven by rugby's declining reputation for safety - despite the arguable increase in safety measures. The perception, rightly, remains that there is a gap between perceived safety reality and what World Rugby (et al) profess.

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

Strangely enough for the strength of their teams in those years, I don’t think Terrnure produced too many senior internationals. Girvan Dempsey is the most recent I can remember. Before that Conor O’Shea and Niall Hogan. Derek Hegarty was a cracking 9 but not sure he ever got capped? That’s not a huge amount in the last 30 years.

Another school who punched above their weight was St Marys who produced quite a lot of internationals over the last 30 years but haven’t challenged at the top end of the schools cups for the last 10 years+. Regularly they were in semis and finals and produced lots of talented schoolboy internationals and senior players but they’ve been pretty quiet in the last 10 years aside from Jack McGrath and Terry Kennedy. (Sexton left in 2004)

[Serb]

I didn't mean to kick off the old people who care about specific schools and those who don't arguments that plague this board (and the sport in general). I'm more interested in how Leinster have tried to open up other pathways into rugby to reduce the reliance on a school, like Terenure in the example above, and how successful that effort has been so far. I think that's key to maintaining the long term success of the sport so, if and when a school board does decide that rugby isn't part of the curriculum anymore, we have spread ourselves wide enough that we can absorb the drop in players from that source.

I get that you're still going to see the vast, vast majority of players coming from a small set of private fee paying schools for the foreseeable future because that's still where most of the underage rugby is played, but it would be nice to see the numbers shifting towards a slightly smaller ratio of those players vs other players who come up through local clubs or other avenues.

I'm also interested in how senior cup rugby success is equating to conversion to professionalism. How good of a barometer is that? Probably the most recent dominant display was from Belvedere College when they made the final in 2015, then won it twice in a row in 2016 and 2017, making the final again in 2018.

If SCT success is the bar, you'd assume a fair number of those players, who would be around the 20 to 24 age bracket, would be making provincial teams or academies, but if you look around, you're not really seeing it. Hugh O'Sullivan, David Hawkshaw and Alex Soroka are the only ones I can see from that period from a pool of maybe 50 players, and two of those have been moved on. Meanwhile, St. Michaels, who have basically been nowhere for a decade, produced the vast majority of our player intake.

[backrower8]

Strangely enough for the strength of their teams in those years, I don’t think Terrnure produced too many senior internationals. Girvan Dempsey is the most recent I can remember. Before that Conor O’Shea and Niall Hogan. Derek Hegarty was a cracking 9 but not sure he ever got capped? That’s not a huge amount in the last 30 years.

Another school who punched above their weight was St Marys who produced quite a lot of internationals over the last 30 years but haven’t challenged at the top end of the schools cups for the last 10 years+. Regularly they were in semis and finals and produced lots of talented schoolboy internationals and senior players but they’ve been pretty quiet in the last 10 years aside from Jack McGrath and Terry Kennedy. (Sexton left in 2004)

All true

[backrower8]

I didn't mean to kick off the old people who care about specific schools and those who don't arguments that plague this board (and the sport in general). I'm more interested in how Leinster have tried to open up other pathways into rugby to reduce the reliance on a school, like Terenure in the example above, and how successful that effort has been so far. I think that's key to maintaining the long term success of the sport so, if and when a school board does decide that rugby isn't part of the curriculum anymore, we have spread ourselves wide enough that we can absorb the drop in players from that source.

I get that you're still going to see the vast, vast majority of players coming from a small set of private fee paying schools for the foreseeable future because that's still where most of the underage rugby is played, but it would be nice to see the numbers shifting towards a slightly smaller ratio of those players vs other players who come up through local clubs or other avenues.

I'm also interested in how senior cup rugby success is equating to conversion to professionalism. How good of a barometer is that? Probably the most recent dominant display was from Belvedere College when they made the final in 2015, then won it twice in a row in 2016 and 2017, making the final again in 2018.

If SCT success is the bar, you'd assume a fair number of those players, who would be around the 20 to 24 age bracket, would be making provincial teams or academies, but if you look around, you're not really seeing it. Hugh O'Sullivan, David Hawkshaw and Alex Soroka are the only ones I can see from that period from a pool of maybe 50 players, and two of those have been moved on. Meanwhile, St. Michaels, who have basically been nowhere for a decade, produced the vast majority of our player intake.

I am with you 100% in wanting more pathways for pro players and reducing over-reliance on a few suspects, but it doesn't make sense not to try and turn an existing rugby-mad (large) school and community, like Terenure, into a producer of a few pros on a regular basis.

SCT wins is not the only bar, but is a barometer. The SCT league and cup competitions in Leinster casts a wider net and definitely contributes to producing the bulwark suppliers provincially and nationally. In fact the SCT League has contributed greatly to teams like Gonzaga and Newbridge breaking into being really contenders in the last 5 years. Other schools like Gerard's, Castlenock and Roscrea have also improved becaise of the competition.

As for Michael's being nowhere for a decade, maybe it was purely meant to bait, but 2 wins in 3 finals since 2012 challenges your definition of 'nowhere'. That said, they remain under-achievers, relative to their efforts and talents, despite those 2 wins.

[macboomba]

I'm always interested in seeing where some of our academy players end up playing their club rugby. I understand plenty end up with UCD and DUFC due to study and scholarships etc. While many go on the play for clubs associated with their schools or locality (Blackrock College to Blackrock RFC, Naas to Naas RFC) but I'm always surprised at the wide geographical spread of Clontarf players.

Clontarf seem to attract players from Wexford and Wicklow as well as the Dublin Schools:
Ben Murphy (21/Pres Bray/Clontarf)
George Hadden(U20/Gorey/Clontarf)
Noah Sheridan(U20/Wicklow RFC/Clontarf)
Martin Moloney(23/Athy RFC/Clontarf)
Brian Deeney (Wexford Wanderers/Clontarf)

Have Clontarf got a great recruitment network set up in the South East or are guys being directed that way by Leinster?

[Lock9541]

I'm always interested in seeing where some of our academy players end up playing their club rugby. I understand plenty end up with UCD and DUFC due to study and scholarships etc. While many go on the play for clubs associated with their schools or locality (Blackrock College to Blackrock RFC, Naas to Naas RFC) but I'm always surprised at the wide geographical spread of Clontarf players.

Clontarf seem to attract players from Wexford and Wicklow as well as the Dublin Schools:
Ben Murphy (21/Pres Bray/Clontarf)
George Hadden(U20/Gorey/Clontarf)
Noah Sheridan(U20/Wicklow RFC/Clontarf)
Martin Moloney(23/Athy RFC/Clontarf)
Brian Deeney (Wexford Wanderers/Clontarf)

Have Clontarf got a great recruitment network set up in the South East or are guys being directed that way by Leinster?

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, especially guys from outside of Dublin, that’s why. Clontarf having success in the Ail also helps them attract good players

[Oldschool]

No mention of The Phantom aha Spicer?

[Oldschoolsocks]

I'm always interested in seeing where some of our academy players end up playing their club rugby. I understand plenty end up with UCD and DUFC due to study and scholarships etc. While many go on the play for clubs associated with their schools or locality (Blackrock College to Blackrock RFC, Naas to Naas RFC) but I'm always surprised at the wide geographical spread of Clontarf players.

Clontarf seem to attract players from Wexford and Wicklow as well as the Dublin Schools:
Ben Murphy (21/Pres Bray/Clontarf)
George Hadden(U20/Gorey/Clontarf)
Noah Sheridan(U20/Wicklow RFC/Clontarf)
Martin Moloney(23/Athy RFC/Clontarf)
Brian Deeney (Wexford Wanderers/Clontarf)

Have Clontarf got a great recruitment network set up in the South East or are guys being directed that way by Leinster?

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, that’s why.

Is that allowed?

[Lock9541]

I'm always interested in seeing where some of our academy players end up playing their club rugby. I understand plenty end up with UCD and DUFC due to study and scholarships etc. While many go on the play for clubs associated with their schools or locality (Blackrock College to Blackrock RFC, Naas to Naas RFC) but I'm always surprised at the wide geographical spread of Clontarf players.

Clontarf seem to attract players from Wexford and Wicklow as well as the Dublin Schools:
Ben Murphy (21/Pres Bray/Clontarf)
George Hadden(U20/Gorey/Clontarf)
Noah Sheridan(U20/Wicklow RFC/Clontarf)
Martin Moloney(23/Athy RFC/Clontarf)
Brian Deeney (Wexford Wanderers/Clontarf)

Have Clontarf got a great recruitment network set up in the South East or are guys being directed that way by Leinster?

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, that’s why.

Is that allowed?

Technically no but every club does it, especially Terenure, due to Terenure having good connections they even go to length of offering players good high paying jobs

[Oldschoolsocks]

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, that’s why.

Is that allowed?

Technically no but every club does it, especially Terenure, due to Terenure having good connections they even go to length of offering players good high paying jobs

this is the road to perdition.

might one even say that Clontarf and Terenure in this case would the the AIL versions of Saracens and Toulon respectively?

[naraic]

I'm always interested in seeing where some of our academy players end up playing their club rugby. I understand plenty end up with UCD and DUFC due to study and scholarships etc. While many go on the play for clubs associated with their schools or locality (Blackrock College to Blackrock RFC, Naas to Naas RFC) but I'm always surprised at the wide geographical spread of Clontarf players.

Clontarf seem to attract players from Wexford and Wicklow as well as the Dublin Schools:
Ben Murphy (21/Pres Bray/Clontarf)
George Hadden(U20/Gorey/Clontarf)
Noah Sheridan(U20/Wicklow RFC/Clontarf)
Martin Moloney(23/Athy RFC/Clontarf)
Brian Deeney (Wexford Wanderers/Clontarf)

Have Clontarf got a great recruitment network set up in the South East or are guys being directed that way by Leinster?

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, that’s why.

Is that allowed?

I believe that it's not allowed for a club to offer money or other benefits but that non club actors are allowed offer benefits.

In clontarf's case apparently one of the club blazers offers players accommodation. Not the club itself.

Not sure it's accurate but thats what rumour told me.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Andrew Smith and Hugh Cooney are also at Clontarf.There’s many reasons for this. Ben Murphy’s Dad played for Clontarf. Leinster also recommend players to play for 1a clubs. Clontarf also pay some of their players and offer them free accommodation, that’s why.

Is that allowed?

I believe that it's not allowed for a club to offer money or other benefits but that non club actors are allowed offer benefits.

In clontarf's case apparently one of the club blazers offers players accommodation. Not the club itself.

Not sure it's accurate but thats what rumour told me.

Kinda a bit like Saracens so

[naraic]

Is that allowed?

I believe that it's not allowed for a club to offer money or other benefits but that non club actors are allowed offer benefits.

In clontarf's case apparently one of the club blazers offers players accommodation. Not the club itself.

Not sure it's accurate but thats what rumour told me.

Kinda a bit like Saracens so

Yes except that the regulation doesn't mention payments by other parties. I believe that the Premiership's rules does mention payments by other parties on behalf of the club.

[Oldschoolsocks]

and there was I thinking that all these guys were running around after Cathal Marsh and his burning desire to win an AIL title, go figure eh...

[Serb]

SCT wins is not the only bar, but is a barometer. The SCT league and cup competitions in Leinster casts a wider net and definitely contributes to producing the bulwark suppliers provincially and nationally. In fact the SCT League has contributed greatly to teams like Gonzaga and Newbridge breaking into being really contenders in the last 5 years. Other schools like Gerard's, Castlenock and Roscrea have also improved becaise of the competition.

As for Michael's being nowhere for a decade, maybe it was purely meant to bait, but 2 wins in 3 finals since 2012 challenges your definition of 'nowhere'. That said, they remain under-achievers, relative to their efforts and talents, despite those 2 wins.

Why would that be bait? They’ve won once in the last 10 (you’re going back 11 seasons, fair enough), but looking at that same period in terms of top tier players produced, they’ve delivered way above any other source.

That’s despite relatively little success in the SCT (Blackrock, Belvedere, Gonzaga, Clongowes, Roscrea have all made at least the same amount of finals in that period), so I don’t really see how success in that competition could really be considered the barometer.

[ormond lad]

I didn't mean to kick off the old people who care about specific schools and those who don't arguments that plague this board (and the sport in general). I'm more interested in how Leinster have tried to open up other pathways into rugby to reduce the reliance on a school, like Terenure in the example above, and how successful that effort has been so far. I think that's key to maintaining the long term success of the sport so, if and when a school board does decide that rugby isn't part of the curriculum anymore, we have spread ourselves wide enough that we can absorb the drop in players from that source.

I get that you're still going to see the vast, vast majority of players coming from a small set of private fee paying schools for the foreseeable future because that's still where most of the underage rugby is played, but it would be nice to see the numbers shifting towards a slightly smaller ratio of those players vs other players who come up through local clubs or other avenues.

I'm also interested in how senior cup rugby success is equating to conversion to professionalism. How good of a barometer is that? Probably the most recent dominant display was from Belvedere College when they made the final in 2015, then won it twice in a row in 2016 and 2017, making the final again in 2018.

If SCT success is the bar, you'd assume a fair number of those players, who would be around the 20 to 24 age bracket, would be making provincial teams or academies, but if you look around, you're not really seeing it. Hugh O'Sullivan, David Hawkshaw and Alex Soroka are the only ones I can see from that period from a pool of maybe 50 players, and two of those have been moved on. Meanwhile, St. Michaels, who have basically been nowhere for a decade, produced the vast majority of our player intake.

Leinster and all provinces have been opening other pathways through getting more clubs and schools fielding through tag, intro to contact blitzes etc and then getting these schools to enter development/lower tier schools competitions and primarily get kids into the local clubs to play. i think you can look at success of that by numbers of clubs teams playing at higher ages, 20s teams from across province etc.
you will see majority of pros coming from the fee schools as they have so many more contact hours with players compared to majority of club players not because its where most of the underage rugby is played because that isnt really true.

[mildlyinterested]

I didn't mean to kick off the old people who care about specific schools and those who don't arguments that plague this board (and the sport in general). I'm more interested in how Leinster have tried to open up other pathways into rugby to reduce the reliance on a school, like Terenure in the example above, and how successful that effort has been so far. I think that's key to maintaining the long term success of the sport so, if and when a school board does decide that rugby isn't part of the curriculum anymore, we have spread ourselves wide enough that we can absorb the drop in players from that source.

I get that you're still going to see the vast, vast majority of players coming from a small set of private fee paying schools for the foreseeable future because that's still where most of the underage rugby is played, but it would be nice to see the numbers shifting towards a slightly smaller ratio of those players vs other players who come up through local clubs or other avenues.

I'm also interested in how senior cup rugby success is equating to conversion to professionalism. How good of a barometer is that? Probably the most recent dominant display was from Belvedere College when they made the final in 2015, then won it twice in a row in 2016 and 2017, making the final again in 2018.

If SCT success is the bar, you'd assume a fair number of those players, who would be around the 20 to 24 age bracket, would be making provincial teams or academies, but if you look around, you're not really seeing it. Hugh O'Sullivan, David Hawkshaw and Alex Soroka are the only ones I can see from that period from a pool of maybe 50 players, and two of those have been moved on. Meanwhile, St. Michaels, who have basically been nowhere for a decade, produced the vast majority of our player intake.

Leinster and all provinces have been opening other pathways through getting more clubs and schools fielding through tag, intro to contact blitzes etc and then getting these schools to enter development/lower tier schools competitions and primarily get kids into the local clubs to play. i think you can look at success of that by numbers of clubs teams playing at higher ages, 20s teams from across province etc.
you will see majority of pros coming from the fee schools as they have so many more contact hours with players compared to majority of club players not because its where most of the underage rugby is played because that isnt really true.

depends on the age grade IMO.

[mildlyinterested]

Leinster u19 clubs played Gonzaga recently, not sure on score yet.

Gonzaga won 38-26.

Some of the leinster players involved: Mahon Ronan, Tadhg Ronan, Darragh Brennan, Tom Larke, Andrew Doyle, Paidi Farrell, Darragh Farrell.

[kff15]

Leinster u19 clubs played Gonzaga recently, not sure on score yet.

Gonzaga won 38-26.

Some of the leinster players involved: Mahon Ronan, Tadhg Ronan, Darragh Brennan, Tom Larke, Andrew Doyle, Paidi Farrell, Darragh Farrell.

Score was 38-28

Also
Grant Palmer (replacement Loose Head), James Harris (15), Connor Fahy(13), Peter Burgess (Outhalf replacement for Tom Larke, super chip and re-collect to create the last try), Luke Ingle (5), David Moore (replacement Hooker), Evan Shelley (8), Connor Moore (14), Neil Byrne (replacement winger - scored last try)