Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

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ronk
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by ronk »

artaneboy wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 8:54 am
Ah, that relentlessness is one of the factors that makes teams fear us- and is a real factor in our success: they know they’ll have to play the full 80+ minutes; it effects their performance. Also, in fairness you can’t post facto rationalise that a serious act of foul play is likely to be perpetrated and could potentially take out one of your best players.


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I don't see it that way. Ruthlessness could be viewed as keeping going for trys, or it could be efficiently running down a team and keeping focus on wining.

In American Football teams will take knees, even on the line, to avoid scoring if they can run out the clock with a 1 score lead. It's not just to avoid collisions on offence or even on defence. There's a very small chance of a quick score, onside kick and a Hail Mary.

There was nothing to play for, not even stats from a table perspective. Just personal glory, Ringrose got his 6th try of the season.

We've been a team that was smart at the end of the half, mostly. And it has stood to us, mostly. We were sloppy at the end of both halves. We didn't take points on offer when we needed them and we took them when we didn't need them.
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blockhead
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by blockhead »

artaneboy wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 1:05 am
Twist wrote:
Experimental wrote:Honestly , if he doesnt get cited for that clear as day flying headbutt theres something very wrong. I think he thinks he's still playing American football
Should be cited for the leggings alone
Seriously, he was a disgrace in the end game. As well that torpedo assault with his head on Ringrose, a minute before that he tackled Ross around the neck, and wasn’t penalised. He was out of control. Citing Commissioner needs to take a hard look at those cumulative incidents.
That was Wade's 7th try against Leinster in Europe!
Must be some kind of record? Xan?
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MylesNaGapoleen
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by MylesNaGapoleen »

hugonaut wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:36 pm This has been an absolutely sensational start to the season: the lads have done brilliantly and deserve huge credit. They're the ones who set high standards for themselves and are more conscious than anybody that they can't win a trophy in January. But the idea that as a fan you can't enjoy the games and enjoy such a winning streak because they haven't won a trophy yet? That's f*cking weird. This is great rugby, these are great results. Enjoy it.
I second that emotion. Thought racing were brilliant up front in the first half. They sorta reminded me of the way saracens in 19/20 or LaR in 21/22 tamed us up front - and we didn't really have a plan B. The response from us was superb. Aligned with a few substitutes, we let loose, spun it wide and ran through them using the backs.

Hope Farrell & Co was watching. Ireland has suffered the same in the past against bulkier packs, playing smart at slowing down ball and disrupting the breakdown.

I think Leinster have enough to get past Ulster in the next round but LAR, Toulouse, Saracens (motivation for them is a big factor) and the SA teams will be really tough games. If I was to make a call now..I would say just making the final would be a massive result for us this season. It's hard to call against an all french final.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Oldschool »

A couple of observations.
Doris at 8 and Conan at 6 is surely the way to go.
We had a congestion problem at 12 early on with Osborne bunched too close t Rosd. Once Osborne was allowed a little more lateral space their defence couldn't play as tight.
Fikou was following Edward's instructions in defence.
The Racing scrum was both illegal and dangerous.
The worst example of this was when they lined up crooked from the engage and literally sheared across our front row.
How the ref and TMO missed that is hard to know.
Leo should point this in the match report and our players should bring it to the attention of the ref. They're not pushing straight ref.
I wandered did the Racing prop get injured because of what they were at.
A tense game for 66 minutes and then Leinster got on top and scored some really top class tries.
The fixes, definitely defensive maul at lineout time and ball protection at ruck time.
Ulster struggled at ruck time against Sale too so this is an area where Ireland will be attacked in the forthcoming 6Ns, I imagine
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by pangurban1 »

Was going to say big Al is better in the loose than Bent though Mick was the better scrummager, Al wasn't great in all round play yesterday.
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riocard911
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by riocard911 »

ronk wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:50 am
artaneboy wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 8:54 am
Ah, that relentlessness is one of the factors that makes teams fear us- and is a real factor in our success: they know they’ll have to play the full 80+ minutes; it effects their performance. Also, in fairness you can’t post facto rationalise that a serious act of foul play is likely to be perpetrated and could potentially take out one of your best players.


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I don't see it that way. Ruthlessness could be viewed as keeping going for trys, or it could be efficiently running down a team and keeping focus on wining.

In American Football teams will take knees, even on the line, to avoid scoring if they can run out the clock with a 1 score lead. It's not just to avoid collisions on offence or even on defence. There's a very small chance of a quick score, onside kick and a Hail Mary.

There was nothing to play for, not even stats from a table perspective. Just personal glory, Ringrose got his 6th try of the season.

We've been a team that was smart at the end of the half, mostly. And it has stood to us, mostly. We were sloppy at the end of both halves. We didn't take points on offer when we needed them and we took them when we didn't need them.
+1
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Dexter »

hugonaut wrote: January 21st, 2023, 10:36 pm
neiliog93 wrote: January 21st, 2023, 9:59 pm Racing rattled Leinster today in a comparable manner to what La Rochelle and Saracens have done in previous seasons. The former two plus Toulouse are all capable of doing that on their day. Still a mountain to climb for Leinster to win a HC (without even mentioning the South African teams).
Absolutely – it's a f*cking hard tournament to win!

I've seen more than a few comments about these results 'not meaning anything at the end of the season', but results matter. Winning matters. We're going to be at home in our next knock-out game because of the way we won these games. That matters. Figuring out ways to beat the Ospreys and Racing when you're down on the scoreboard is important.

The idea that we should win every game at a canter and look invulnerable is absolutely wild ... nobody does that. The Crusaders have never done that, Toulouse have never done that.

This has been an absolutely sensational start to the season: the lads have done brilliantly and deserve huge credit. They're the ones who set high standards for themselves and are more conscious than anybody that they can't win a trophy in January. But the idea that as a fan you can't enjoy the games and enjoy such a winning streak because they haven't won a trophy yet? That's f*cking weird. This is great rugby, these are great results. Enjoy it.
I wish there was a "like" button for this post.
It's been really enjoyable watching Leinster, so far, long may it continue.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Blue Man »

The most enjoyable games have been when we had to dig deep (Sharks, Ulster, Ospreys and Racing). Also the games that will most benefit the players
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ronk
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by ronk »

riocard911 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:35 pm
ronk wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:50 am
artaneboy wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 8:54 am
Ah, that relentlessness is one of the factors that makes teams fear us- and is a real factor in our success: they know they’ll have to play the full 80+ minutes; it effects their performance. Also, in fairness you can’t post facto rationalise that a serious act of foul play is likely to be perpetrated and could potentially take out one of your best players.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't see it that way. Ruthlessness could be viewed as keeping going for trys, or it could be efficiently running down a team and keeping focus on wining.

In American Football teams will take knees, even on the line, to avoid scoring if they can run out the clock with a 1 score lead. It's not just to avoid collisions on offence or even on defence. There's a very small chance of a quick score, onside kick and a Hail Mary.

There was nothing to play for, not even stats from a table perspective. Just personal glory, Ringrose got his 6th try of the season.

We've been a team that was smart at the end of the half, mostly. And it has stood to us, mostly. We were sloppy at the end of both halves. We didn't take points on offer when we needed them and we took them when we didn't need them.
+1
Toulouse today. The game is won, time is up. They've secured 2nd in the pool and can't get first. Winning by 4 points.

They take a 5m tap and go. If they were smarter they understand that the equation is gain nothing versus drop back to 5th place if they give up the ball and Munster score a try. That would be a guaranteed home last 16 and QF (if they get there).

If didn't go wrong today, but so what.
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riocard911
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by riocard911 »

ronk wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 5:13 pm
riocard911 wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 12:35 pm
ronk wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 9:50 am

I don't see it that way. Ruthlessness could be viewed as keeping going for trys, or it could be efficiently running down a team and keeping focus on wining.

In American Football teams will take knees, even on the line, to avoid scoring if they can run out the clock with a 1 score lead. It's not just to avoid collisions on offence or even on defence. There's a very small chance of a quick score, onside kick and a Hail Mary.

There was nothing to play for, not even stats from a table perspective. Just personal glory, Ringrose got his 6th try of the season.

We've been a team that was smart at the end of the half, mostly. And it has stood to us, mostly. We were sloppy at the end of both halves. We didn't take points on offer when we needed them and we took them when we didn't need them.
+1
Toulouse today. The game is won, time is up. They've secured 2nd in the pool and can't get first. Winning by 4 points.

They take a 5m tap and go. If they were smarter they understand that the equation is gain nothing versus drop back to 5th place if they give up the ball and Munster score a try. That would be a guaranteed home last 16 and QF (if they get there).

If didn't go wrong today, but so what.
You're absolutely right, Ronk. It's called smart game management - like when Leinster in RSA at the end of last season - vs the Sharks? - kicked the ball out the end, cos we had the LBP we needed and Soroka was annoyed, thinking we should have run it and it had to be explained to him.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by wixfjord »

A few points on the re-watch that stuck out to me:

- Ross Byrne has really improved his attacking game so much.

- Joe McCarthy is still a really, really raw player. That's a good thing (ferocious hits and real natural athleticism) but also a bad thing (way too loose at times and gives away stupid penalties).

- Sheehan is well ahead of Kelleher at the moment. Better thrower and massive impact on open play.

- Doris was very quiet, obviously too a knock but even before that. Conan was excellent. Back to his best and really looked confident out there.

- Baird's impact was massive. He's taking great lines off slow ball and making 2-3 yards and quick ball.

- Our kicking game has improved a lot this year. Keenan/Byrne in particular.

- I thought that was a game we missed Ngatai/Lowe. Backline at times was a little lacking in punch and got buffeted a few times well behind gainline.

- Having Furlong/Jenkins available to us is now more important than anyone else in the team.

- I thought we tried to play too wide and not direct enough in first half. At end of the half we had a period of pick and gos and looked much better imo. However, it was clearly a ploy again to go really aggressive early and tire Racing out, which worked, just like the Le Harve game.

- If you look at that game with a cool head, we basically shot ourselves in the foot while cruising in first half (Byrne kick, Larmour yellow and try) and the second try was a pure fluke from the blocked kick. Performance wasn't great but we still beat a solid Racing team by a big score while missing multiple Lions and some key players. We know exactly where we need to tighten up and improve for the knockouts too.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Flash Gordon »

wixfjord wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 5:30 pm A few points on the re-watch that stuck out to me:

- Ross Byrne has really improved his attacking game so much.

- Joe McCarthy is still a really, really raw player. That's a good thing (ferocious hits and real natural athleticism) but also a bad thing (way too loose at times and gives away stupid penalties).

- Sheehan is well ahead of Kelleher at the moment. Better thrower and massive impact on open play.

- Doris was very quiet, obviously too a knock but even before that. Conan was excellent. Back to his best and really looked confident out there.

- Baird's impact was massive. He's taking great lines off slow ball and making 2-3 yards and quick ball.

- Our kicking game has improved a lot this year. Keenan/Byrne in particular.

- I thought that was a game we missed Ngatai/Lowe. Backline at times was a little lacking in punch and got buffeted a few times well behind gainline.

- Having Furlong/Jenkins available to us is now more important than anyone else in the team.

- I thought we tried to play too wide and not direct enough in first half. At end of the half we had a period of pick and gos and looked much better imo. However, it was clearly a ploy again to go really aggressive early and tire Racing out, which worked, just like the Le Harve game.

- If you look at that game with a cool head, we basically shot ourselves in the foot while cruising in first half (Byrne kick, Larmour yellow and try) and the second try was a pure fluke from the blocked kick. Performance wasn't great but we still beat a solid Racing team by a big score while missing multiple Lions and some key players. We know exactly where we need to tighten up and improve for the knockouts too.
Agree with that. I thought Ross had a mixed game live as his kicking game wasn't up to it's usual perfect standard - including the mad cross field kick that cost us Larmour. Watching again he was actually really good again. Great to see him come along because of many of us didn't see it in him, he just works and works though.

The rise and rise of Sheahan is incredible to watch. Partially agree on Ngatai and Lowe, Jimmy made 100meters so I'll take that and I thought Larmour was decent. It was a big step up for Osborne and that's a good thing for his development. That game will have helped the Ireland coaching team figure out where he is development wise.

Furlong, Jenkins importance but I'd add Andrew Porter to that, the lad is a machine. After putting in a massive shift just before he was taken off he bounced up out of a ruck jumping up and down bursting with energy. The guy is in super nick.

Racing have had a poor tournament but they are still one of the top European teams so a test like this was brilliant for us. If I had one criticism of us it would be that we occasionally lack patience. Not every play has to be champagne rugby.
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the spoofer
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by the spoofer »

Can anyone explain how Wade didn't get carded for the deliberate knock on at 59 seconds.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Serb »

He should have been, I think it was just the weird psychological phenomenon that a lot of refs go through, "Sure it's too early to give a card".
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by Barry »

the spoofer wrote:Can anyone explain how Wade didn't get carded for the deliberate knock on at 59 seconds.
Agree - happened right in front of me, I assumed it would be a definate penalty and yellow card. The touch judge who was standing 10m away and had a clear view of the incident, bizarrely gave a scrum to Racing - it took the TMO's intervention to give us the scrum.


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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by mildlyinterested »

the spoofer wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:47 am Can anyone explain how Wade didn't get carded for the deliberate knock on at 59 seconds.
Carleys a poor ref
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by ronk »

They decided that he was trying to catch the ball and had a chance at it. His 2nd hand was up but not quite close enough to be in a catching position to me.

It was one of those that would often be called as a yellow but had enough wiggle room on replay for a ref to get out of it.
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the spoofer
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by the spoofer »

ronk wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:56 am They decided that he was trying to catch the ball and had a chance at it. His 2nd hand was up but not quite close enough to be in a catching position to me.

It was one of those that would often be called as a yellow but had enough wiggle room on replay for a ref to get out of it.
I didn't think it was close live and also on rewatch.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by desperado »

the spoofer wrote: January 23rd, 2023, 10:47 am Can anyone explain how Wade didn't get carded for the deliberate knock on at 59 seconds.
So obvious. Wasn't even a pen. Seemed like Carley with his TMO determined it as an attempt to catch the ball.... a one handed tap down? TMO also missed Wade's human torpedo impersonation or head first sliding tackle out of control into Ringrose's ribs. I'd say Gary has some nice bruising there this morning.
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Re: Leinster v Racing 21 Jan

Post by hugonaut »

wixfjord wrote: January 22nd, 2023, 5:30 pm A few points on the re-watch that stuck out to me:

- Ross Byrne has really improved his attacking game so much.

- Joe McCarthy is still a really, really raw player. That's a good thing (ferocious hits and real natural athleticism) but also a bad thing (way too loose at times and gives away stupid penalties).

- Sheehan is well ahead of Kelleher at the moment. Better thrower and massive impact on open play.

- Doris was very quiet, obviously too a knock but even before that. Conan was excellent. Back to his best and really looked confident out there.

- Baird's impact was massive. He's taking great lines off slow ball and making 2-3 yards and quick ball.

- Our kicking game has improved a lot this year. Keenan/Byrne in particular.

- I thought that was a game we missed Ngatai/Lowe. Backline at times was a little lacking in punch and got buffeted a few times well behind gainline.

- Having Furlong/Jenkins available to us is now more important than anyone else in the team.

- I thought we tried to play too wide and not direct enough in first half. At end of the half we had a period of pick and gos and looked much better imo. However, it was clearly a ploy again to go really aggressive early and tire Racing out, which worked, just like the Le Harve game.

- If you look at that game with a cool head, we basically shot ourselves in the foot while cruising in first half (Byrne kick, Larmour yellow and try) and the second try was a pure fluke from the blocked kick. Performance wasn't great but we still beat a solid Racing team by a big score while missing multiple Lions and some key players. We know exactly where we need to tighten up and improve for the knockouts too.
It was also a good game, a good standard of rugby. I thought it was an enjoyable game when I was at it, but looking back on it, it was better than that. Their tackling is really outstanding, as is their discipline – not something that you always get with a French side away from home.

Lowe is world class – one of the three best left wings in the world [Koroibete, Lowe, Mapimpi or Arendtse] in my opinion – and I think that we always miss him when he is not in the team. Always gets go-forward, always produces improvised bits and pieces that surprise the opposition, a phenomenal try-scorer and an outstanding kicking option. In fairness to Jimmy though, he had an absolute blinder. That was the best I've ever seen him play on the wing, I thought he was pretty much flawless.

Agree with you on Keenan's kicking, that has really improved. He has good discipline with it and tends to find some empty ground.

I saw somebody write – I think it was Neil Treacy in RTE, who I actually like as a rugby writer – say that the late tries put an "artificial shine" on the game. My response to that would be that it's an 80 minute game. You play for the 80 minutes. If the game only went on for 75 minutes we'd have won the European Cup last year. All the points count.

We're a fitter team than Racing, just as NZ teams in the past were fitter than Irish teams. I remember a half dozen games against NZ when we sort of lived with them for an hour and then bang-bang, they scored two tries when we were fading and rubbed our noses in it with another late one [or two]. Scoring points in the last ten or fifteen minutes is a hell of a lot better than fumbling around and f*cking it up.
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