Heineken Champions Cup Final 2023

[nc6000]

But was McCall being linked to the Ireland job before the salary cap stuff was uncovered? I don't think so.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

You spoke about Alsacian rugby fans ... it's like Brazilian rugby fans , no rugby in Alsace man , they don't know nothing about rugby and even less about your full story with ROG and all the rivalry stuff .

I was talking about french rugby fans...as an aside, there are a lot of rugby clubs in Alsace. I live near there. And to suggest they don't know anything about rugby is extremely unfair. rugby isn't just about having a big cheque book, you know. Lots of young Irish rugby players drop out of the academy setups to play amateur rugby on weekends, because it's more fun without the pressure that comes with being in the academy and they love the game. There's no big cheque book in Alsace but there are lots of small rugby clubs..with people who are passionate about and know their rugby.

Don't compare Racing and Toulon with La Rochelle is like comparing Connacht and Leinster, your assertion about ROG and doing same thing with Munster is true , but it's true for all the coaches man , give Brive to Stuart Lancaster and will see , give Pau to Eddie Jone will see . What's the point you would prove because they are French teams with big cheque book too no ?

Fair point about comparing toulon with LAR but Stuart Lancaster was with Leinster...no big cheque book, he had to work with mostly academy players. Eddie jones went to Japan, no big cheque book and produced amazing results with them. ROG in munster without the big cheque book is something I think he will struggle with. On that I think we agree. Let's see.

I think Lancaster will be able to win when he fields his second side actually.

His training methods involve the whole squad of players in very high intensity training sessions, which means his second and third choice players are prepared to come into the matchday side and not look out of place.

For me Leinster being able to win matches when they field a second string team is because of Lancaster, not because the URC is weak. The second team did not win consistently before Lancaster was here.

Due to Lancaster going there I have Racing down as one of the teams to beat in Europe over the next few seasons.

interesting points. I tend to agree with you about Lancaster @ Racing doing well. Curiously, they dumped Finn Russell and just offered Marcus Smith (quinns) an huge contract. Smith is a quality player and his style of rugby fits the lancaster mould of running rugby with intricate moves.

With the world cup looming and so many Leinster players involved, I think we may struggle in the 2024 edition of the heino cup. pool games start very soon after the WC. Depending on the draw, obviously, I can see another Toulouse V LAR final in London next year.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

But was McCall being linked to the Ireland job before the salary cap stuff was uncovered? I don't think so.

I think McCall, like Lancaster, is more of a club coach than an international coach. That was apparent in 2015 when england bounced out of the WC in the pool stages. That said, both are great club coaches. Lancaster thrives on working week-in week-out with his squad and I think McCall might be the same.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Everyone here on the last 60 pages could do better than listen to Brian O'Driscoll today on Newstalk.

I did and I agree. We lack the "dog" - as he put it - that gets teams over the line. Ireland seems to have it, thankfully. Hopefully Nienebar brings it into leinster.

[ronk]

But was McCall being linked to the Ireland job before the salary cap stuff was uncovered? I don't think so.

I think McCall, like Lancaster, is more of a club coach than an international coach. That was apparent in 2015 when england bounced out of the WC in the pool stages. That said, both are great club coaches. Lancaster thrives on working week-in week-out with his squad and I think McCall might be the same.

That and they're not media whores. Journalists never really choose the quiet life, when they can have controversy on tap.

[artaneboy]

Just on the idea that ROG would be a shoo-in for the Ireland job next time it’s available; what’s he done that Mark McCall hasn’t?

Won competitions while staying within the budget permitted by the regulations of his League.


Ultimately, either fairly or unfairly, everything McCall has done is tainted by Saracens financial misdeeds

No, not everything. The “cap” didn’t apply to the Heineken. They deserved those, same as us, same as Toulon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Just on the idea that ROG would be a shoo-in for the Ireland job next time it’s available; what’s he done that Mark McCall hasn’t?

Won competitions while staying within the budget permitted by the regulations of his League.


Ultimately, either fairly or unfairly, everything McCall has done is tainted by Saracens financial misdeeds

No, not everything. The “cap” didn’t apply to the Heineken. They deserved those, same as us, same as Toulon.

not quite. saracens wouldn't have made the heineken cup if they stayed within the cap domestically. exeter, who did and who were very vocal about what saracens were doing, went onto win the heino.

the problem with saracens was that it forced other teams to do the same in england. It spiralled and now a lot of premiership teams are looking like they won't survive the next few years. salarycens started the fire, covid poured petrol on it.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

But was McCall being linked to the Ireland job before the salary cap stuff was uncovered? I don't think so.

I think McCall, like Lancaster, is more of a club coach than an international coach. That was apparent in 2015 when england bounced out of the WC in the pool stages. That said, both are great club coaches. Lancaster thrives on working week-in week-out with his squad and I think McCall might be the same.

That and they're not media whores. Journalists never really choose the quiet life, when they can have controversy on tap.

agreed. McCall looks like he would much rather be chewing tin foil when doing interviews.

[curates_egg]

I bet there's someone from your history you can think of and maybe it'll make more sense how we feel.

La Rochelle has no history. They've come from nowhere. And they've done it without having the biggest budget either. Just smart recruitment and good marketing (to build up the support in essentially less than ten years).
It's an entirely different model to ours. And, frankly, to almost any rugby club I can think of.
I am not sure how I feel about it, but it is impressive.

Consequently, they have no old wound or grudges to draw on.
That's possibly why ROG invents all this rubbish.

[Flash Gordon]

Just on the idea that ROG would be a shoo-in for the Ireland job next time it’s available; what’s he done that Mark McCall hasn’t?

Won competitions while staying within the budget permitted by the regulations of his League.


Ultimately, either fairly or unfairly, everything McCall has done is tainted by Saracens financial misdeeds

French teams generally find ways round the salary cap. I hasten to add, I don't know the intricate details of L Rochelle's financing but some of the stunts that Saracens pulled that got them banned on image rights and investments would be in the repertoire in France.

As an aside, I don't think Smally wants the job. He's the opposite of ROG in that he has no ego. I also think ROG is a better hands on coach to be honest. Director of rugby suits Smally.

[sunshiner1]

Took a few days off to get over the game (and to read this thread. Page 63!) While I agree with most of the stuff I found it funny that people were fuming over ROG going down to talk to the ref at half-time. Schmidt would be perched at the entrance of the tunnel at every home game waiting to talk to the ref. I'm disappointed with the game but I think there is a lot of fixable work-ons we can do so feel good about the future. I hope to see changes next year but not major surgery either.

[backrower8]

Drico was very insightful and subtly direct on OTB last night. Possibly the most telling I have ever heard from him in commenting on an Irish team.

He diplomatically called out Ross Byrne, suggesting that he is not adequate for Ireland at RWC knock-out stages. He also called out the team, despite being more talented and deeper than the 2011-12 crop, as not being a great team, because greatness is judged by eking out the championships - Heineken Cup Championships that is.

He also fairly pointedly said that Paulie is next in line for Ireland coach role whenever that is and hinted that the idea of Paulie and ROG sharing the coaching ticket is not the slam dunk that pouplist opinion sees it as. He is not taken in by the ROG hype machine and didn't hesitate to put it on the public record that he thought ROG planned a good bit of his media tactics (aka shithousery - my words). We all now he does but the media never point to or challenge how ROG the Golden Goose keeps delivering for them.

It was quite a telling interview alright.

Also, someone mentioned his apearances on OTB as evidence of how much ROG likes to be available to the media. I think that is true, but there are two things going on here. One is that I think ROG is paid to do OTB and it also fits into his PR strategy of creating a tsunmai of popular opinion that forces the IRFU to appoint a coach who does not sit well with the IRFU's style (respect for the values of the game - which would be part of their pitch to sponsors) and who is currently not within the coaching ticket, which is the preferred succession route.

ROG's ambition, narcissistic persona and strategy has him, the IRFU, the Irish public (he is thinking wider than rugby public) and Irish rugby itself on a collision course.

[Flash Gordon]

Drico was very insightful and subtly direct on OTB last night. Possibly the most telling I have ever heard from him in commenting on an Irish team.

He diplomatically called out Ross Byrne, suggesting that he is not adequate for Ireland at RWC knock-out stages. He also called out the team, despite being more talented and deeper than the 2011-12 crop, as not being a great team, because greatness is judged by eking out the championships - Heineken Cup Championships that is.

He also fairly pointedly said that Paulie is next in line for Ireland coach role whenever that is and hinted that the idea of Paulie and ROG sharing the coaching ticket is not the slam dunk that pouplist opinion sees it as. He is not taken in by the ROG hype machine and didn't hesitate to put it on the public record that he thought ROG planned a good bit of his media tactics (aka shithousery - my words). We all now he does but the media never point to or challenge how ROG the Golden Goose keeps delivering for them.

It was quite a telling interview alright.

Also, someone mentioned his apearances on OTB as evidence of how much ROG likes to be available to the media. I think that is true, but there are two things going on here. One is that I think ROG is paid to do OTB and it also fits into his PR strategy of creating a tsunmai of popular opinion that forces the IRFU to appoint a coach who does not sit well with the IRFU's style (respect for the values of the game - which would be part of their pitch to sponsors) and who is currently not within the coaching ticket, which is the preferred succession route.

ROG's ambition, narcissistic persona and strategy has him, the IRFU, the Irish public (he is thinking wider than rugby public) and Irish rugby itself on a collision course.

Thanks for the summary, will have a listen!

I didn't like the way Rog conducted himself around the match media wise. However, the guy is an ambitious professional coaching abroad, wouldn't blame him for maintaining a media profile in Ireland to keep his name in the fame for jobs and career progression. Mark McCall has been achieving similar levels of success and most people have forgotten about him.

Paulie is someone that most fans could get behind, personality does matter as Eddie Jones found out. That's definitely a work on for Rog who is clearly a very intelligent and able rugby coach.

[TMC]

Everyone here on the last 60 pages could do better than listen to Brian O'Driscoll today on Newstalk.

I did and I agree. We lack the "dog" - as he put it - that gets teams over the line. Ireland seems to have it, thankfully. Hopefully Nienebar brings it into leinster.

No he wont. You're born with dog IMHO. You either have it in you or you don't
Porter has it, Ryan has it, JVDF has it.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

Drico was very insightful and subtly direct on OTB last night. Possibly the most telling I have ever heard from him in commenting on an Irish team.

the OTB podcast with Drico is excellent. https://player.fm/series/otb-rugby-7448 ... before-rog

There's an honesty to his analysis that I really like and he doesn't hold back pointing out key elements that cost us the game. I think Farrell & Co will have a drop goal strategy for the world cup so that's something that can be fixed. The void left when Ryan had to come off was very obvious and that needs fixing too for both Leinster & Ireland.

ROG's ambition, narcissistic persona and strategy has him, the IRFU, the Irish public (he is thinking wider than rugby public) and Irish rugby itself on a collision course.

There is more than a hint of donald trump about what ROG is doing. There's also an accidental Alan Partridge side to it, which is really funny, especially the OTB podcast, where ROG seems to have a regular slot talking about how great he is. He loves the media attention.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

We lack the "dog" - as he put it - that gets teams over the line. Ireland seems to have it, thankfully. Hopefully Nienebar brings it into leinster.

No he wont. You're born with dog IMHO. You either have it in you or you don't
Porter has it, Ryan has it, JVDF has it.

Fair point.

[Dave Cahill]

ROG knows exactly what he is doing. Even with that comment about the Irish job. He has no intention of taking the Irish job, not for a long time yet, but - as with the other bombshells he likes to drop - he knows that there are plenty of 'useful idiots' out there who will spend so much time analyzing what he says, no one is paying attention to what he does.

[FtD]

At Half Time on Saturday Ross Byrne had thrown Zero(0) passes. Didn't think he played that poor of a game but the fact we didn't have a single backs move in the first half where our outhalf passed the ball is worrying.

That's clearly not true, since at a minimum he threw a very nice pass to Jimmy O'Brien for his try.

Ah sorry L'equipe stated that, saw Brett Igoe on twitter corrected it, it was 1 in the first half. Henshaw threw zero, Ringrose threw zero, Keenan zero, Lowe Zero, Jimmy Zero. Our entire backline outside of 10 didn't complete a pass the ENTIRE GAME. Byrne had 8 passes in the second half.

Genuinely gobsmacked at those stats.

Yeah, it's one of the most shocking stats I ever recall coming out of a Leinster game, and it's exactly indicative of how LAR had the legs in those closing minutes. If we had been able to maintain any sort of possession and stretch them in the second half, their big men wouldn't have been as fresh as they were in the end game.

[Twist]

We lack the "dog" - as he put it - that gets teams over the line. Ireland seems to have it, thankfully. Hopefully Nienebar brings it into leinster.

No he wont. You're born with dog IMHO. You either have it in you or you don't
Porter has it, Ryan has it, JVDF has it.

Fair point.

I disagree. You can build aggression into a group. For a sporting example, the formerly freewheeling Donegal footballers suddenly started thinking they were the baddest gang on football street in 2011 (the year of the infamous SF against Dublin). They won the all Ireland in 2012.

[Flash Gordon]

Everyone here on the last 60 pages could do better than listen to Brian O'Driscoll today on Newstalk.

I did and I agree. We lack the "dog" - as he put it - that gets teams over the line. Ireland seems to have it, thankfully. Hopefully Nienebar brings it into leinster.

No he wont. You're born with dog IMHO. You either have it in you or you don't
Porter has it, Ryan has it, JVDF has it.

I don't know what dog means. We didn't lose this game because we didn't front up or chicken out of contests. We lost it because we aimlessly kicked the ball back to the best team in Europe at carrying the ball for long periods of the game. And also because we lacked a bit of leadership at key moments, the final drive being the biggest case in point.