Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

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dropkick
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by dropkick »

The main question is how, not who. How will the team play. Will it be a slow, box kicking game or the fast paced, move the ball game that beat England.
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ronk
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Likewise Sheehan, although it will be interesting to see what happens if Kelleher/Herring pick up a knock. Will they bench Sheehan against a top test side?
I would hope they would do so without hesitation.
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ronk
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

John Ryan out. So it looks like his international career is over.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Is the net effort of Porter moving going to be Bealham in at tighthead and one of Healy/Kilcoyne not playing.

Is Healy a tighthead or loosehead at international level?
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cormac
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by cormac »

ronk wrote: October 20th, 2021, 11:54 pm John Ryan out. So it looks like his international career is over.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Is the net effort of Porter moving going to be Bealham in at tighthead and one of Healy/Kilcoyne not playing.

Is Healy a tighthead or loosehead at international level?
They could try Healy as sub-tighthead against Japan.
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erskinechilders
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by erskinechilders »

Tom O'Toole has a lot of upside in fairness to him. Time for him to get game time against either Japan or Argentina.
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ronk
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

Why are it so many Leinster fans try to talk up losing players. Leinster is a great place to be.

Byrne is playing regularly, winning trophies, in a good setup and living around all his friends and family. The kind of money that Madigan got was an exceptional package. The medium-long term outlook for staying in Leinster is really good. Sexton is old and there's no one in the pipeline other than his brother. If Harry wins the provincial battle, he'll also be an international regular.

He just missed out on holding tackle bags because Faz isnt bringing a token 4th outhalf, so what! Are Carty and Burns about to leave. Burns is from England, is known there and has already moved during his career.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by allezlesverres »

wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Likewise Sheehan, although it will be interesting to see what happens if Kelleher/Herring pick up a knock. Will they bench Sheehan against a top test side?
Surely he's the only other hooker in the squad so he'd have to bench (or start?). What would the alternative be?
wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

If we can get a pack of Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Hendo, Ryan, Beirne, VDF, Doris out against the ABs it'll be fascinating to see.
That would be some pack to be fair, but would Doris start in front of full fat test lion Jack Conan?
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by OneLungDavy »

allezlesverres wrote: October 21st, 2021, 11:35 am
wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Likewise Sheehan, although it will be interesting to see what happens if Kelleher/Herring pick up a knock. Will they bench Sheehan against a top test side?
Surely he's the only other hooker in the squad so he'd have to bench (or start?). What would the alternative be?
wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

If we can get a pack of Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Hendo, Ryan, Beirne, VDF, Doris out against the ABs it'll be fascinating to see.
That would be some pack to be fair, but would Doris start in front of full fat test lion Jack Conan?
Conan is real confidence player and can be one of the best 8s in Europe when on form. His confidence must be sky-high after the Lions, he should be nailed-on at 8.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

allezlesverres wrote: October 21st, 2021, 11:35 am
wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Likewise Sheehan, although it will be interesting to see what happens if Kelleher/Herring pick up a knock. Will they bench Sheehan against a top test side?
Surely he's the only other hooker in the squad so he'd have to bench (or start?). What would the alternative be?
wixfjord wrote: October 20th, 2021, 8:54 pm

If we can get a pack of Porter, Kelleher, Furlong, Hendo, Ryan, Beirne, VDF, Doris out against the ABs it'll be fascinating to see.
That would be some pack to be fair, but would Doris start in front of full fat test lion Jack Conan?
The alternative would be a recall for Scannell etc.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by wixfjord »

allezlesverres wrote: October 21st, 2021, 11:35 am


Surely he's the only other hooker in the squad so he'd have to bench (or start?). What would the alternative be?
Bring in someone more experienced like Heffernan or Scannell in replacement for the injured guy.

I'm not saying that will happen, but benching Sheehan against the ABs for example when he hasn't even played Champions Cup would be a big call (albeit warranted on form).
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by riocard911 »

ronk wrote: October 21st, 2021, 11:30 am Why are it so many Leinster fans try to talk up losing players. Leinster is a great place to be.

Byrne is playing regularly, winning trophies, in a good setup and living around all his friends and family. The kind of money that Madigan got was an exceptional package. The medium-long term outlook for staying in Leinster is really good. Sexton is old and there's no one in the pipeline other than his brother. If Harry wins the provincial battle, he'll also be an international regular.

He just missed out on holding tackle bags because Faz isnt bringing a token 4th outhalf, so what! Are Carty and Burns about to leave. Burns is from England, is known there and has already moved during his career.
+1. All Leinster players look good playing for Leinster, cos Leinster are one of the top club teams in the world with a set-up that goes with it. Moving somewhere else and performing to the same high standard in circumstances probably not as conducive as those at Leinster is extremely difficult if not well-nigh impossible.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by Oldschool »

dropkick wrote: October 20th, 2021, 10:46 pm The main question is how, not who. How will the team play. Will it be a slow, box kicking game or the fast paced, move the ball game that beat England.
Interesting question.
Reading Eddie Jones' book at the moment.
Two of the things he identified in England when he first picked up the reins.

1. They weren't fit enough in the sense of being able to play a high tempo game because they wanted to play a grinding down, power game.
2. He wanted England to play a much higher tempo game and skilful obviously.
3. He identified leadership as an issue.

So you are right, how does Farrell want our/his players to play. Have we the necessary skills to implement the type of game he wants to play.
Some of Farrell's squad selections are interesting.
For example Burns appeared to be his nailed on bench 10.
Unless he's injured then his absence is a significant surprise.
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munster#1
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by munster#1 »

This definitely won’t be a popular opinion for some, but looking at the current Irish squad the lack of world class or arguably world class players available at the moment has to be a concern.

Looking at the complete squad, the only player, imo, that we have that would be held in that regard would be Furlong. By world class I mean someone who would be an automatic selection for nearly every international team.

Henshaw is one that is arguably at that level, maybe Murray on his day, but that is not clear cut.
Looking at the chasing pack, nobody jumps out as someone who is close.

You don’t need 15 world class players, but you do need more than 1 to beat the best.

This is not something that anyone is responsible for, and there is not much you can do to alter that, so I’m not having a dig at anyone. World class players are not built in training, it is something that they must possess.

Imo that Ireland squad doesn’t look strong enough to bring home silverware without the likes of England, France and Wales imploding.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by fourthirtythree »

Who does? I looked at the lions squad from the second test and you have those two, both second rows..... Hogg maybe. That's it.

Mako and Taulupe and Conor a couple of years before but not then.

And me picking Alun as World class is probably controversial here.

At one point Ireland had O'Connell, Ferris, Wallace and O'Brien and O'Driscoll. That was for about ten minutes until injury ended Ferris and. Wallace and O'Brien became intermittent, O'Connell had a mid career injury lull and O'Driscoll aged out.
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ronk
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

I'd count Heaslip as world class, just with the caveat that there were a lot of world class 8s at the time.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by fourthirtythree »

ronk wrote: October 23rd, 2021, 12:30 pm I'd count Heaslip as world class, just with the caveat that there were a lot of world class 8s at the time.
That's fair but when we had Ferris, Wallace and OBrien Heaslip had the other injury in his career and wasn't on top form, had he been I'd have started him and benched Seán for his versatility. But he was world class. Starting test lion etc.

I think Ireland have a few players with world class potential, Kelleher just as a for example last night. And a couple that are off form but were and may well be again, Ryan and Ringrose.

And Porter could well turn out to be a world class loosehead by the end of the year.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by Oldschool »

ronk wrote: October 23rd, 2021, 12:30 pm I'd count Heaslip as world class, just with the caveat that there were a lot of world class 8s at the time.
+1
He never looked out of place no matter who the opposition were.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by Oldschool »

munster#1 wrote: October 22nd, 2021, 10:12 am This definitely won’t be a popular opinion for some, but looking at the current Irish squad the lack of world class or arguably world class players available at the moment has to be a concern.

Looking at the complete squad, the only player, imo, that we have that would be held in that regard would be Furlong. By world class I mean someone who would be an automatic selection for nearly every international team.

Henshaw is one that is arguably at that level, maybe Murray on his day, but that is not clear cut.
Looking at the chasing pack, nobody jumps out as someone who is close.

You don’t need 15 world class players, but you do need more than 1 to beat the best.

This is not something that anyone is responsible for, and there is not much you can do to alter that, so I’m not having a dig at anyone. World class players are not built in training, it is something that they must possess.

Imo that Ireland squad doesn’t look strong enough to bring home silverware without the likes of England, France and Wales imploding.
Very good angle on things
It would be interesting to select a (your) world class fifteen and a fifteen to play against them.
Ignore coaches and bench.
Having done that, how many of our players would make either fifteen.
Taking it further you could list the number of players from each country that make the thirty.
Then the analysis can begin.
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Think Front-rows, Back-rows and Mid-field. We may be short of World Class In second-row and wingers but we have them in three areas so that's probably as many as any team bar NZ.
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ronk
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Re: Ireland Autumn Internationals 2021

Post by ronk »

Pecking orders often aren't that clean. Look at scrumhalf: Murray's on his own then it's down to preference/debate for Casey, GJP, McGrath, Cooney, Marmion, Blade.

Same for the best players in a position worldwide. Sometimes there's a panel of good ones, sometimes there's no megastar, sometimes there's a huge dropoff.

If you're picking an arbitrary number of players for each position then you're ranking, not picking a bucket at a standard. I think it's more helpful to do the latter, especially when players can be so different in the same position while still being effective.
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