Rugby Championship 2022

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neill_m
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by neill_m »

Springbok team to face New Zealand in Johannesburg:
15 – Damian Willemse, 14 – Jesse Kriel, 13 – Lukhanyo Am, 12 – Damian de Allende, 11 – Makazole Mapimpi, 10 – Handre Pollard, 9 – Jaden Hendrikse, 8 – Duane Vermeulen, 7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 – Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 – Lood de Jager, 4 – Eben Etzebeth, 3 – Frans Malherbe, 2 – Joseph Dweba, 1 – Ox Nche

16 – Malcolm Marx, 17 – Steven Kitshoff, 18 – Vincent Koch, 19 – Franco Mostert, 20 – Jasper Wiese, 21 – Kwagga Smith, 22 – Hershel Jantjies, 23 – Willie le Roux
Last edited by neill_m on August 10th, 2022, 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hugonaut
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by hugonaut »

The All Blacks were really poor. This is the worst All Blacks team I have seen in a long, long time. I would say that they're the worst of the professional era.

I don't think that it is all down to Ian Foster, but you can't look past the confusion that repeatedly crops up when they have possession, and the number of mistakes that they make. They have become an erratic, error-prone, unconfident team. I have never seen a New Zealand team look so disorganised with ball in hand. You can't gloss over the coach's contribution to that.

On the other hand, there's a relative lack of talent in this team. I was just looking at some of their previous squads, and the drop off in some positions is staggering. For example, their hookers in their RWC07 squad were
- Anton Oliver [55 caps when selected/57 career total];
- Keven Mealamu [47/132]; and
- Andrew Hore [21/83].
Anyone of those players would walk into their team at the moment.

They have selected a ton of props in squads over the last year - Nepo Laulala, Angus Ta'avo, Ethan de Groot, Fletcher Newell [all THs], then George Bower, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Karl Tuinu'kuafe, Aidan Ross, Tyrel Lomax [all LHs] – and I don't think a single one of them would have made their RWC15 squad [Woodcock, Crockett, Faumuina, Ben & Owen Franks, with Joe Moody replacing Woodcock].

Since Sam Cane was made All Blacks captain in 2020, he has played in 13 games and they've lost six of them:
07.11.20 AUS 24 - NZ 22 [-2]
14.11.20 NZ 15 - ARG 25 [-10]
20.11.21 FRA 40 - 25 NZ [-15]
09.07.22 NZ 12 - 23 IRE [-11]
16.07.22 NZ 22 - 32 IRE [-10]
06.08.22 SA 26 - 10 NZ [-16]

With the exception of the Australia game, those aren't even BP losses. Three of them are home losses, with an average losing margin of -12. The captaincy isn't working for him, obviously. And if the captaincy isn't working out, what is he bringing to the team? He doesn't make steals, he doesn't get over the gainline, he doesn't win lineouts, he doesn't get on the ball a lot.

Akira Ioane continues to self-sabotage his career. Best U20 I have ever seen, but it's seven years on now and what has he got to show for it? Never a question about his talent always a massive issue with him presenting out of shape and unfit. He's played in 15 tests for NZ now and lost six of them. I don't know if there's an All Black with double-figures of caps who has a worse winning rate.

And the bench? Coles is 35 and clearly done as an international. De Groot, Lomax, Vaa'i, Frizzell, Christie and Tupaea is not a bench that would worry any Tier 1 side.
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Flash Gordon
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by Flash Gordon »

hugonaut wrote: August 9th, 2022, 9:37 pm The All Blacks were really poor. This is the worst All Blacks team I have seen in a long, long time. I would say that they're the worst of the professional era.
Completely agree. I'm praying we get the All Blacks in the World Cup not France and I never thought I'd say that!
Flash ahhhh ahhh, he'll save every one of us
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jezzer
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by jezzer »

hugonaut wrote: August 9th, 2022, 9:37 pm The All Blacks were really poor. This is the worst All Blacks team I have seen in a long, long time. I would say that they're the worst of the professional era.

I don't think that it is all down to Ian Foster, but you can't look past the confusion that repeatedly crops up when they have possession, and the number of mistakes that they make. They have become an erratic, error-prone, unconfident team. I have never seen a New Zealand team look so disorganised with ball in hand. You can't gloss over the coach's contribution to that.

On the other hand, there's a relative lack of talent in this team. I was just looking at some of their previous squads, and the drop off in some positions is staggering. For example, their hookers in their RWC07 squad were
- Anton Oliver [55 caps when selected/57 career total];
- Keven Mealamu [47/132]; and
- Andrew Hore [21/83].
Anyone of those players would walk into their team at the moment.

They have selected a ton of props in squads over the last year - Nepo Laulala, Angus Ta'avo, Ethan de Groot, Fletcher Newell [all THs], then George Bower, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Karl Tuinu'kuafe, Aidan Ross, Tyrel Lomax [all LHs] – and I don't think a single one of them would have made their RWC15 squad [Woodcock, Crockett, Faumuina, Ben & Owen Franks, with Joe Moody replacing Woodcock].

Since Sam Cane was made All Blacks captain in 2020, he has played in 13 games and they've lost six of them:
07.11.20 AUS 24 - NZ 22 [-2]
14.11.20 NZ 15 - ARG 25 [-10]
20.11.21 FRA 40 - 25 NZ [-15]
09.07.22 NZ 12 - 23 IRE [-11]
16.07.22 NZ 22 - 32 IRE [-10]
06.08.22 SA 26 - 10 NZ [-16]

With the exception of the Australia game, those aren't even BP losses. Three of them are home losses, with an average losing margin of -12. The captaincy isn't working for him, obviously. And if the captaincy isn't working out, what is he bringing to the team? He doesn't make steals, he doesn't get over the gainline, he doesn't win lineouts, he doesn't get on the ball a lot.

Akira Ioane continues to self-sabotage his career. Best U20 I have ever seen, but it's seven years on now and what has he got to show for it? Never a question about his talent always a massive issue with him presenting out of shape and unfit. He's played in 15 tests for NZ now and lost six of them. I don't know if there's an All Black with double-figures of caps who has a worse winning rate.

And the bench? Coles is 35 and clearly done as an international. De Groot, Lomax, Vaa'i, Frizzell, Christie and Tupaea is not a bench that would worry any Tier 1 side.
100% agree. And to see the players who actually are good be "infected" by the malaise to the point that they're playing tier 2 level stuff ball-in-hand is really worrying for NZ.
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hugonaut
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by hugonaut »

jezzer wrote: August 10th, 2022, 5:41 pm 100% agree. And to see the players who actually are good be "infected" by the malaise to the point that they're playing tier 2 level stuff ball-in-hand is really worrying for NZ.
'Infected' is the right word.

Ardie Savea, Beauden Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Aaron Smith and Sam Whitelock are proven world class players - Barrett is a double World Rugby IPOTY [with a further nomination], Ioane has been nominated twice, Savea once, Smith is one of the best scrum-halves of the pro era, Sam Whitelock is a double World Cup winner with 135 caps, 113 of them starts.

That should be a really good spine to build your team around.
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ronk
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by ronk »

Sometimes good coaches go wrong. It worked elsewhere, it might work again in the future, but it ain't working now and it's not going to.

Results are bad, team is not performing, rugby isn't good, players aren't doing so hot either. It's not a bad run, it's a decline and it's been long enough. There's no reason to expect a turnaround, nothing to hold onto in terms of a transformation such a new gameplan or style.
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jezzer
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by jezzer »

hugonaut wrote: August 10th, 2022, 6:19 pm
jezzer wrote: August 10th, 2022, 5:41 pm 100% agree. And to see the players who actually are good be "infected" by the malaise to the point that they're playing tier 2 level stuff ball-in-hand is really worrying for NZ.
'Infected' is the right word.

Ardie Savea, Beauden Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Aaron Smith and Sam Whitelock are proven world class players - Barrett is a double World Rugby IPOTY [with a further nomination], Ioane has been nominated twice, Savea once, Smith is one of the best scrum-halves of the pro era, Sam Whitelock is a double World Cup winner with 135 caps, 113 of them starts.

That should be a really good spine to build your team around.
Haviili, Jordie Barrett and Will Jordan are all good players in their own right too. Some decent bench options in Scott B, Christie and of course Mo'unga, who maybe should be starting.

Front five is a big concern. Flanker is weirdly a concern. 13 is a big concern (Rieko to me is a winger). But coaching is the biggest issue without question.
neill_m
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by neill_m »

All Blacks match-day 23 (Test caps in brackets):

1. Ethan de Groot (5), 2. Samisoni Taukei’aho (12), 3. Tyrel Lomax (15), 4. Samuel Whitelock (135), 5. Scott Barrett (51), 6. Shannon Frizell (18),
7. Sam Cane © (81), 8. Ardie Savea (63), 9. Aaron Smith (106), 10. Richie Mo’unga (36), 11. Caleb Clarke (6), 12. David Havili (17), 13. Rieko Ioane (51), 14. Will Jordan (16), 15. Jordie Barrett (40)

16. Codie Taylor (69), 17. George Bower (15), 18. Fletcher Newell *, 19. Tupou Vaa’i (13), 20. Akira Ioane (15), 21. Finlay Christie (7), 22. Beauden Barrett (105), 23. Quinn Tupaea (10)

*Debut
wixfjord
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by wixfjord »

They have such huge issues in the front row.

None of that starting or bench front row would make our 23.
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hugonaut
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by hugonaut »

jezzer wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:50 am Front five is a big concern. Flanker is weirdly a concern. 13 is a big concern (Rieko to me is a winger). But coaching is the biggest issue without question.
It's huge, and like you say, really unexpected.

The All Blacks have always had world-leading backrows and some of the backrows they have fielded – Kaino/McCaw/Read from 2009-15, Jones/Kronfeld/Brooke in 1996-97, Alan Whetton/Jones/Shelford in 1987-89 and Tremain/Nathan/Lochore in the mid-1960s – have had the best player in the world in each of the three positions playing in the same unit.

The current unit looks so ill-equipped. Ardie Savea is a hell of a player and is trying to put the team on his back, but he mightn't even be playing in his best position. Cane looks completely out of sorts and like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Akira is a constant disappointment given his potential, and Frizzell is not convincing at all at test level and on a personality level, he seems like a bad egg.
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desperado
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by desperado »

hugonaut wrote: August 10th, 2022, 6:19 pm
jezzer wrote: August 10th, 2022, 5:41 pm 100% agree. And to see the players who actually are good be "infected" by the malaise to the point that they're playing tier 2 level stuff ball-in-hand is really worrying for NZ.
'Infected' is the right word.

Ardie Savea, Beauden Barrett, Rieko Ioane, Aaron Smith and Sam Whitelock are proven world class players - Barrett is a double World Rugby IPOTY [with a further nomination], Ioane has been nominated twice, Savea once, Smith is one of the best scrum-halves of the pro era, Sam Whitelock is a double World Cup winner with 135 caps, 113 of them starts.

That should be a really good spine to build your team around.
Completely agree. I think there's an infection alright, but they are also lacking in quality for example at 12 are Quinn Tupaea, David Havili really the best about? compare with times past Ma'Nonu, Sonny Bill, Umaga to mention 3. Can't remember for sure; but I think it was Tupaea who knocked on the over the top lineout throw to open field. A set move, that fell apart at step 1. Apart from Smith, BB, Will Jordan, (and Ioane at his best - which he hasnt been) the rest of the backline don't have that AB aura of other years. The backrow doesn't at all look balanced. Read is a huge loss; and is Ardea Savea's best position really at 8? Sam Cane is not AB standard 7 vs McCaw. Kaino/McCaw/Read - there's a balanced formidable BR. In addition to ''infection'/lack of confidence, and quality, selection has to be questioned. Is Foster selecting the best players NZ has; does he know who his best are? Personally I can't understand why Sevu Reece wasnt in the 23 - is he injured?
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desperado
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by desperado »

hugonaut wrote: August 11th, 2022, 7:50 pm
jezzer wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:50 am Front five is a big concern. Flanker is weirdly a concern. 13 is a big concern (Rieko to me is a winger). But coaching is the biggest issue without question.
It's huge, and like you say, really unexpected.

The All Blacks have always had world-leading backrows and some of the backrows they have fielded – Kaino/McCaw/Read from 2009-15, Jones/Kronfeld/Brooke in 1996-97, Alan Whetton/Jones/Shelford in 1987-89 and Tremain/Nathan/Lochore in the mid-1960s – have had the best player in the world in each of the three positions playing in the same unit.

The current unit looks so ill-equipped. Ardie Savea is a hell of a player and is trying to put the team on his back, but he mightn't even be playing in his best position. Cane looks completely out of sorts and like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Akira is a constant disappointment given his potential, and Frizzell is not convincing at all at test level and on a personality level, he seems like a bad egg.
posted without reading this post... in violent agreement basically; I was going to mention Josh Kronfeld> he was a 'terror' at 7.
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jezzer
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by jezzer »

hugonaut wrote: August 11th, 2022, 7:50 pm
jezzer wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:50 am Front five is a big concern. Flanker is weirdly a concern. 13 is a big concern (Rieko to me is a winger). But coaching is the biggest issue without question.
It's huge, and like you say, really unexpected.

The All Blacks have always had world-leading backrows and some of the backrows they have fielded – Kaino/McCaw/Read from 2009-15, Jones/Kronfeld/Brooke in 1996-97, Alan Whetton/Jones/Shelford in 1987-89 and Tremain/Nathan/Lochore in the mid-1960s – have had the best player in the world in each of the three positions playing in the same unit.

The current unit looks so ill-equipped. Ardie Savea is a hell of a player and is trying to put the team on his back, but he mightn't even be playing in his best position. Cane looks completely out of sorts and like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Akira is a constant disappointment given his potential, and Frizzell is not convincing at all at test level and on a personality level, he seems like a bad egg.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by weirdly. I mean, it just never happens that NZ have a poor back row.

Ardie probably has to play 8, out of the ABs huge need for his go-forward. I'd be tempted to put Scott Barrett back at 6 and then try to plug the gap in the second row. Scott's skullduggery and general disruption gives you the latitude to go for a more mobile, linking 7.

The other option is keep S Barrett at lock and bring in Cullen Grace at 6.

De Groot seems like he might help shore up the front row, he's known as a tough nut with good set piece and dominant collision work.

Beauden had a shocker in the first test so happy to see Mo'unga get a shot.
neill_m
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by neill_m »

Saturday 8:10pm KO Irish Time Sky Sports Action

Argentina:
15 Juan Cruz Mallia, 14 Emiliano Boffelli, 13 Matias Moroni, 12 Jeronimo De La Fuente, 11 Juan Imhoff, 10 Santiago Carreras, 9 Gonzalo Bertranou, 8 Pablo Matera, 7 Marcos Kremer, 6 Juan Martin Gonzalez, 5 Tomas Lavanini, 4 Matias Alemanno, 3 Francisco Gomez Kodela, 2 Julian Montoya (c), 1 Thomas Gallo

Replacements: 16 Agustin Creevy, 17 Nahuel Tetaz Chaparro, 18 Joel Sclavi, 19 Facundo Isa, 20 Rodrigo Bruni, 21 Tomas Cubelli, 22 Tomas Albornoz, 23 Lucio Cinti

Wallabies:
Tom Wright, Jordan Petaia, Len Ikitau, Lalakai Foketi, Marika Koroibete, James O’Connor, Nic White, Rob Valetini, Fraser McReight, Jed Holloway, Darcy Swain, Rory Arnold, Taniela Tupou, Folau Fainga’a, James Slipper (captain).

Reserves: Lachlan Lonergan, Matt Gibbon, Pone Fa’amausili, Nick Frost, Pete Samu, Tate McDermott, Irae Simone, Reece Hodge.

Hopefully the commentators will be a bit more excited this week.....
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hugonaut
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by hugonaut »

jezzer wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:10 am
hugonaut wrote: August 11th, 2022, 7:50 pm
jezzer wrote: August 11th, 2022, 8:50 am Front five is a big concern. Flanker is weirdly a concern. 13 is a big concern (Rieko to me is a winger). But coaching is the biggest issue without question.
It's huge, and like you say, really unexpected.

The All Blacks have always had world-leading backrows and some of the backrows they have fielded – Kaino/McCaw/Read from 2009-15, Jones/Kronfeld/Brooke in 1996-97, Alan Whetton/Jones/Shelford in 1987-89 and Tremain/Nathan/Lochore in the mid-1960s – have had the best player in the world in each of the three positions playing in the same unit.

The current unit looks so ill-equipped. Ardie Savea is a hell of a player and is trying to put the team on his back, but he mightn't even be playing in his best position. Cane looks completely out of sorts and like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Akira is a constant disappointment given his potential, and Frizzell is not convincing at all at test level and on a personality level, he seems like a bad egg.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by weirdly. I mean, it just never happens that NZ have a poor back row.

Ardie probably has to play 8, out of the ABs huge need for his go-forward. I'd be tempted to put Scott Barrett back at 6 and then try to plug the gap in the second row. Scott's skullduggery and general disruption gives you the latitude to go for a more mobile, linking 7.

The other option is keep S Barrett at lock and bring in Cullen Grace at 6.

De Groot seems like he might help shore up the front row, he's known as a tough nut with good set piece and dominant collision work.

Beauden had a shocker in the first test so happy to see Mo'unga get a shot.
I'd go Barrett @ No6, Ardie @ No7 with Hoskins Sototu @ No8.

Ardie or Sam Whitelock as captain.

I think the ABs would be well-served with a big second row/blindside at No6 in the current game, especially given the competition they play in and the relative weakness of their front row.

Obviously if Akira changed his mindset and became committed to becoming a Great All Black [to use Richie McCaw's phrase], then he's in the team at blindside or No8 and could be amongst the very best in the world [highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz3htNxDEfc ] but I've been waiting for that to happen since the 2015 JWC and it doesn't look imminent.

Pari Pari Parkinson is injured at the moment [long term injury] but he's a physical phenom. All the renowned Kiwi second rows to date have basically been pakehas [Tiny Hill, Colin and Stan Meads, Andy Haden, Gary Whetton, Ian Jones and Robin Brooke, Brad Thorn, Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock] but he could break the mould. He has had some horrific injuries and hasn't yet played test rugby, but an unreal athlete and a cracking player.
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Oldschoolsocks
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

hugonaut wrote: August 12th, 2022, 7:56 pm
jezzer wrote: August 12th, 2022, 10:10 am
hugonaut wrote: August 11th, 2022, 7:50 pm

It's huge, and like you say, really unexpected.

The All Blacks have always had world-leading backrows and some of the backrows they have fielded – Kaino/McCaw/Read from 2009-15, Jones/Kronfeld/Brooke in 1996-97, Alan Whetton/Jones/Shelford in 1987-89 and Tremain/Nathan/Lochore in the mid-1960s – have had the best player in the world in each of the three positions playing in the same unit.

The current unit looks so ill-equipped. Ardie Savea is a hell of a player and is trying to put the team on his back, but he mightn't even be playing in his best position. Cane looks completely out of sorts and like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. Akira is a constant disappointment given his potential, and Frizzell is not convincing at all at test level and on a personality level, he seems like a bad egg.
Yeah, that's exactly what I meant by weirdly. I mean, it just never happens that NZ have a poor back row.

Ardie probably has to play 8, out of the ABs huge need for his go-forward. I'd be tempted to put Scott Barrett back at 6 and then try to plug the gap in the second row. Scott's skullduggery and general disruption gives you the latitude to go for a more mobile, linking 7.

The other option is keep S Barrett at lock and bring in Cullen Grace at 6.

De Groot seems like he might help shore up the front row, he's known as a tough nut with good set piece and dominant collision work.

Beauden had a shocker in the first test so happy to see Mo'unga get a shot.
I'd go Barrett @ No6, Ardie @ No7 with Hoskins Sototu @ No8.

Ardie or Sam Whitelock as captain.

I think the ABs would be well-served with a big second row/blindside at No6 in the current game, especially given the competition they play in and the relative weakness of their front row.

Obviously if Akira changed his mindset and became committed to becoming a Great All Black [to use Richie McCaw's phrase], then he's in the team at blindside or No8 and could be amongst the very best in the world [highlights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz3htNxDEfc ] but I've been waiting for that to happen since the 2015 JWC and it doesn't look imminent.

Pari Pari Parkinson is injured at the moment [long term injury] but he's a physical phenom. All the renowned Kiwi second rows to date have basically been pakehas [Tiny Hill, Colin and Stan Meads, Andy Haden, Gary Whetton, Ian Jones and Robin Brooke, Brad Thorn, Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock] but he could break the mould. He has had some horrific injuries and hasn't yet played test rugby, but an unreal athlete and a cracking player.
I’d always thought that Robin Brooke was Maori.
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LeRouxIsPHat
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

This is a cracking contest. NZ struggled to win any collisions in the first 25 mins but got outside SA every time they pushed the pass but were let down by some poor handling then. They really caught fire after about 25 minutes though when it all came together.

Poor tackle from Clarke there but he’s having a cracker. Set up for a great second half!
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by Dave Cahill »

Niall Woods would be embarrassed by that effort from Caleb Clarke
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OTT
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by OTT »

Really enjoying this game. All Blacks playing like there’s no tomorrow. Boks not doing much but still managing to be only a few points down.
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Re: Rugby Championship 2022

Post by LeRouxIsPHat »

Amazing that Wiese couldn’t hear that whistle but the other 7 SA players in shot all managed to. What a stupid thing to do, good player but that shite let’s him down time and time again.
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