Aviva Premiership: something exciting happens

[tigerburnie]

Pleased for Worcester getting a result on the field, who knows what will happen off the pitch, ironic they might go first and actually owe little money in the big scheme of things. Club rugby is always at the top of the list in England and long may it continue, if Wuss and possibly Wasps go down the leagues we will carry on, the list of clubs that couldn't manage the top league is long as is the list of clubs striving to get promoted to the Premiership. The RFU have next to no idea how to run a rugby organisation, so we will do our best to keep them at arms length.

[FLIP]

Pleased for Worcester getting a result on the field, who knows what will happen off the pitch, ironic they might go first and actually owe little money in the big scheme of things. Club rugby is always at the top of the list in England and long may it continue, if Wuss and possibly Wasps go down the leagues we will carry on, the list of clubs that couldn't manage the top league is long as is the list of clubs striving to get promoted to the Premiership. The RFU have next to no idea how to run a rugby organisation, so we will do our best to keep them at arms length.

Sorry tigerburnie but if the RFU have no idea the PRL have a negative value of how to do so. If the game at the top in England implodes it will be the fault of the PRL first and foremost.

[paddyor]

Pleased for Worcester getting a result on the field, who knows what will happen off the pitch, ironic they might go first and actually owe little money in the big scheme of things. Club rugby is always at the top of the list in England and long may it continue, if Wuss and possibly Wasps go down the leagues we will carry on, the list of clubs that couldn't manage the top league is long as is the list of clubs striving to get promoted to the Premiership. The RFU have next to no idea how to run a rugby organisation, so we will do our best to keep them at arms length.

What do you think will happen TB? The salary cap drop seems like the right decision to stabilize finances but I'm not sure they can have a 13 team league with that kind of cap. Will stick or mayb e cut to 10 if another club hits the skids? My view is they gambled big after the 2 big revenue increases they got from The BT deal and the EPCR but the growth never materialized and now they're realizing that the 6N audience isn't really transferable. Or are they just winding up for another round of "this time it'll be different". I know they got hammered by COVID but Kitson was sounding the alarm bells before it(having hilariously almost a year previously said everything was rosie in the garden) so this was kind of coming IMO.

[tigerburnie]

I don't like the idea of ring fencing and I certainly don't like the attitude the PRL have of the league being some sort of private members club either, money has trashed the game I played, but to be honest I have no idea what the answer is. Sir John Hall started this chaos when he bought Gosforth, changed the name to Newcastle, bought a team, won the league then buggered off leaving them high and dry. You'd think the clubs would have learnt from that lesson, but clearly not, ironically Falcons are probably running within their means now and one of the few that are. Leicester are trying to build finances outside of the game, new hotel business being one idea, that opened last month I think, that has got to be the way as I cannot see sponsors giving money to sport for ever propping them up and fans are getting short of money, gates for games are not growing due to money worries.

[Dave Cahill]

Get rid of the Salary Cap and let the free market do what it does. Well-run clubs will survive, poorly run clubs will drop back to the amateur game. Let the clubs spend what they want and on whatever they want and let the fiscal evolutionary process sort the wheat from the chaff

[ronk]

I haven't read in detail but it's confusing how the English clubs continue to struggle financially.

They have a fairly solid TV deal, do well out of Heineken Cup, get loads from the RFU, are fairly well attended, are in a better commercial environment than here and have a salary cap. Travel costs should be a lot lower than for us too.

Yet they still lose a fortune.

[naraic]

I haven't read in detail but it's confusing how the English clubs continue to struggle financially.

They have a fairly solid TV deal, do well out of Heineken Cup, get loads from the RFU, are fairly well attended, are in a better commercial environment than here and have a salary cap. Travel costs should be a lot lower than for us too.

Yet they still lose a fortune.

I think the big thing is that no one should compare with us. We are subsidised by the IRFU and that makes a difference to us.

In Wasps case they are hit by almost 4 million in interest every year since they moved to coventry and the loan is due soon.

In Worchester's case it looks like the owners have been asset stripping. They've split the club into 19 different companies over the last 5 years. It looks like the club is going be wound up with hmrc debt while the owners walk away owning the carpark, training ground and stadium and they will knock everything to the ground and develop the properties.

I hope this is investigated and any illegal asset stripping is prosecuted.

Looking at Leicester Tigers they have a small loss year on year and their balance sheet is supported by accounting exercises revaluing positively the value of Welford Road and the club's share in the Premier League.

[paddyor]

I don't like the idea of ring fencing and I certainly don't like the attitude the PRL have of the league being some sort of private members club either, money has trashed the game I played, but to be honest I have no idea what the answer is. Sir John Hall started this chaos when he bought Gosforth, changed the name to Newcastle, bought a team, won the league then buggered off leaving them high and dry. You'd think the clubs would have learnt from that lesson, but clearly not, ironically Falcons are probably running within their means now and one of the few that are. Leicester are trying to build finances outside of the game, new hotel business being one idea, that opened last month I think, that has got to be the way as I cannot see sponsors giving money to sport for ever propping them up and fans are getting short of money, gates for games are not growing due to money worries.

I think the day of big sponsorship money for niche sports is gone to the like of pewdiepie and twitch streams. 30m subscribers vs a couple k.

[paddyor]

I haven't read in detail but it's confusing how the English clubs continue to struggle financially.

They have a fairly solid TV deal, do well out of Heineken Cup, get loads from the RFU, are fairly well attended, are in a better commercial environment than here and have a salary cap. Travel costs should be a lot lower than for us too.

Yet they still lose a fortune.

They were mostly loss making to start with. Got the boost from the TV deal, EPCR and (I forgot this one) the RFU deal but all told that wasn’t enough to cover the wage increases they leaned into to “compete with the Irish and French”. In the end they mostly ended up spending against each other for domestic talent. Ultimately despite the uplift in tv and rfu income it wasn’t enough to cover the wage increases and wasn’t accompanied by increased income elsewhere like gate receipts(which I guess is what sunk wasps business plan - that and signing flops like sopoaga)

I remember being really scared we’d be striped of talent post erc split but it never materialized. Like the sexton to racing thing was pre debacle IMO after that it was only Moore and to a lesser extent Madigan. Maybe Hanrahan too? It happened for the Welsh to an extent and the Scot’s but with the latter that was more by consent. Scot’s were happy to create space in their teams for new talent. The threat never happened because they were too busy outbidding each other for fairly mediocre talent already in the league.

[paddyor]

Get rid of the Salary Cap and let the free market do what it does. Well-run clubs will survive, poorly run clubs will drop back to the amateur game. Let the clubs spend what they want and on whatever they want and let the fiscal evolutionary process sort the wheat from the chaff

Dave is now a libertarian lmao

[riocard911]

Get rid of the Salary Cap and let the free market do what it does. Well-run clubs will survive, poorly run clubs will drop back to the amateur game. Let the clubs spend what they want and on whatever they want and let the fiscal evolutionary process sort the wheat from the chaff

Dave is now a libertarian lmao

Was kind of amused by that meself. Sounds like they invited him to join the Mont Pelerin Society. Don't do it, Dave!!!

[ronk]

I haven't read in detail but it's confusing how the English clubs continue to struggle financially.

They have a fairly solid TV deal, do well out of Heineken Cup, get loads from the RFU, are fairly well attended, are in a better commercial environment than here and have a salary cap. Travel costs should be a lot lower than for us too.

Yet they still lose a fortune.

They were mostly loss making to start with. Got the boost from the TV deal, EPCR and (I forgot this one) the RFU deal but all told that wasn’t enough to cover the wage increases they leaned into to “compete with the Irish and French”. In the end they mostly ended up spending against each other for domestic talent. Ultimately despite the uplift in tv and rfu income it wasn’t enough to cover the wage increases and wasn’t accompanied by increased income elsewhere like gate receipts(which I guess is what sunk wasps business plan - that and signing flops like sopoaga)

I remember being really scared we’d be striped of talent post erc split but it never materialized. Like the sexton to racing thing was pre debacle IMO after that it was only Moore and to a lesser extent Madigan. Maybe Hanrahan too? It happened for the Welsh to an extent and the Scot’s but with the latter that was more by consent. Scot’s were happy to create space in their teams for new talent. The threat never happened because they were too busy outbidding each other for fairly mediocre talent already in the league.

I saw the way they were so quick to throw cash at young players once they were rated high enough. I suppose there’s been a lot of expensive moving around stadia too.

[Dave Cahill]

Get rid of the Salary Cap and let the free market do what it does. Well-run clubs will survive, poorly run clubs will drop back to the amateur game. Let the clubs spend what they want and on whatever they want and let the fiscal evolutionary process sort the wheat from the chaff

Dave is now a libertarian lmao

I'm all about the free market capitalism me!

[hugonaut]

I haven't read in detail but it's confusing how the English clubs continue to struggle financially.

They have a fairly solid TV deal, do well out of Heineken Cup, get loads from the RFU, are fairly well attended, are in a better commercial environment than here and have a salary cap. Travel costs should be a lot lower than for us too.

Yet they still lose a fortune.

A number of them are not well attended. Worcester in general have only the third lowest average attendance, with Sale and Newcastle fighting to stay off the bottom.

If you look back at the last full season pre-covid, 2018-19, this is the attendance for home matches in their premiership: https://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/a ... 2018#18099

Sale finished mid-table that season, had 11 home fixtures, and drew 72,443 spectators – an average crowd of 6,585. Connacht's average crowd for that season was 5,875. That's just 710 fewer people/game.

Sale is somewhere around 10km from Manchester [just a little bit further from Rathfarnham to Ballsbridge] which has a metropolitan population of 2.75m people - that's Dublin +1.3m people. Sale is 120km away from the nearest Premiership club, Leicester.

It's another example of why demographics or population base does not automatically equal success or popularity, but the bigger point is that the Sharks are nowhere near a viable business. And it's not even an attractive business to a potential buyer – f*ck all people go to their games.

[ronk]

Still more than Connacht. And the other 9 clubs were at least double that attendance, which is respectable by URC standards.

Shows how far ahead the top clubs are though. Munster's Heineken Cup attendance over 3 matches was basically the same. Adjusting for ticket price premium Leinster probably made more for the Munster game than Worcester's PRL season.

A short term fix would be to cut a team or two, redistribute RFU and TV funding. Cut the PRL Cup. Then build up the Heineken Cup, success there doesn't come at the expense of another PRL club. Doing so means playing to the same breakdown interpretations.

Then put in salary cap protections to limit poaching of younger players.

[tigerburnie]

Still more than Connacht. And the other 9 clubs were at least double that attendance, which is respectable by URC standards.

Shows how far ahead the top clubs are though. Munster's Heineken Cup attendance over 3 matches was basically the same. Adjusting for ticket price premium Leinster probably made more for the Munster game than Worcester's PRL season.

A short term fix would be to cut a team or two, redistribute RFU and TV funding. Cut the PRL Cup. Then build up the Heineken Cup, success there doesn't come at the expense of another PRL club. Doing so means playing to the same breakdown interpretations.

Then put in salary cap protections to limit poaching of younger players.

Sounds far too sensible for the English game sadly.

[blockhead]

It wouldn't suprise me, should the Nigels, in the context of Wasps having to be relegated and Worcester to close up shop, rather than go down the route of promoting the likes of Ealing Pathfinder and the Cornish Pirates into the Prem, start a push some kind of arrangement, whereby the Irish, South Africans and Welsh come to the rescue their "business model". I would be very much against that.

The same thing crossed my mind, re the welsh.

So could these 2 teams get kicked out now and not fulfill their fixtures? That woudn't help the other teams at all, 2 paydays down.

Rugby Paper saying that talks have begun on moving Cardiff and Scarlets to the prem.

[naraic]

It wouldn't suprise me, should the Nigels, in the context of Wasps having to be relegated and Worcester to close up shop, rather than go down the route of promoting the likes of Ealing Pathfinder and the Cornish Pirates into the Prem, start a push some kind of arrangement, whereby the Irish, South Africans and Welsh come to the rescue their "business model". I would be very much against that.

The same thing crossed my mind, re the welsh.

So could these 2 teams get kicked out now and not fulfill their fixtures? That woudn't help the other teams at all, 2 paydays down.

Rugby Paper saying that talks have begun on moving Cardiff and Scarlets to the prem.

Wales Online says its unlikely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.waleso ... 101927.amp

I've said this elsewhere but here's my opinion.

The English are floating the idea but the Welsh teams are tied into contracts with the URC. If the English want a 14 team premiership (which is their stated goal) they need external clubs to bail them out.

The Premiership aren't going to buy them out of contracts.

[paddyor]

The same thing crossed my mind, re the welsh.

So could these 2 teams get kicked out now and not fulfill their fixtures? That woudn't help the other teams at all, 2 paydays down.

Rugby Paper saying that talks have begun on moving Cardiff and Scarlets to the prem.

Wales Online says its unlikely.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.waleso ... 101927.amp

I've said this elsewhere but here's my opinion.

The English are floating the idea but the Welsh teams are tied into contracts with the URC. If the English want a 14 team premiership (which is their stated goal) they need external clubs to bail them out.

The Premiership aren't going to buy them out of contracts.

I think PRL are smarter than that. I think the kite is coming from Wales

[hugonaut]

https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/new ... ion-update

PRL have changed their stadium requirements for teams seeking promotion from the Championship. This is squarely aimed at Ealing Trailfinders and probably Doncaster Knights as well.