Munster Rugby 2021/2022 - Search for the Holy Grail

[Oldschool]

Perfect time to get Lancaster down to Limerick.
A team of himself, McNamara and Rowntree would be ideal to take Munster to the next level.

Imagine what they could do with the obvious talent that Munster have.

Obviously wouldn't want to lose Lancaster but it's a coach of Lancaster's calibre that is needed.
The commute probably wouldn't work for him TG.

[munster#1]

Perfect time to get Lancaster down to Limerick.
A team of himself, McNamara and Rowntree would be ideal to take Munster to the next level.

Imagine what they could do with the obvious talent that Munster have.

Obviously wouldn't want to lose Lancaster but it's a coach of Lancaster's calibre that is needed.
The commute probably wouldn't work for him TG.

As other posters have mentioned, it is in Ireland’s best interests to get Munster firing on all cylinders.

They could charter JPs get into Shannon a couple of times a week to suit he’s commute.

[deco]

Perfect time to get Lancaster down to Limerick.
A team of himself, McNamara and Rowntree would be ideal to take Munster to the next level.

Imagine what they could do with the obvious talent that Munster have.

Munsteragua's inability to retain their coaching staff is a problem. Penny, Flannery, Jones, Erasmus and now Larkham. The club is a joke. An expensive joke.

Cullen is by far the country's most successful provincial coach. His contract is up at the end of the season and he has a history of winning in Thomond

[jezzer]

Just listened to Woody on OTB and he was quietly seething about Larkham going and Munster's continued trust in JVG and his game plan.

I can sympathise because people like to watch nice rugby, people like winning rugby and people like to see their provincial heroes play for Ireland. Munster will struggle to achieve those things with JVG at the helm and are even less likely to now that Larkham is gone.

But.... you do have to ask what the point is of trying to create Munstertainment in Limerick. It's like England and the EU - "we see the logic, there are huge financial and social benefits, but at the end of the day it's just not us". And England were right. For all its plusses, bowing to Angela Merkel and her next incarnation is not in the collective DNA. Full stop.

Munster have the same dilemma. What makes sense versus what feels right. Head versus heart. Well, it doesn't take an exhaustive troll through Munster's pro setup history to see which side is going to win. NOBODY who has tried to coach Munster to open attacking rugby has survived. JVG is about to get extended - does anyone honestly think the Munster brains trust is planning on getting Munster to follow the collective expansive gameplan with Johann at the wheel?

Munster, in Coombes, Casey and Carbery actually have the 8/9/10 axis to make the switch - and some other pieces in Killer, Snyman, POM, Conway, Daly to run it.

But they won't. And probably they shouldn't. Too much cultural resistance. The worry that they'd be playing "Leinster's game" (tho the Irish system is prob as much or more Connacht's game) and not succeeding as well at it.

Larkham is the latest coach sent packing because he couldn't implement his plan. If Munster recruit another expansive rugby disciple, he won't be the last.

Prendy might fit because he'll know to moderate his philosophy and Munster could end up with a halfway house, which for them could be ideal (or could be falling between two stools).….

PS The above is my honest and genuine opinion. It's not written to troll anyone. If it was, I'd have posted it in PR or mf.com!

[fourthirtythree]

Problem with that is that their DNA, their genoplasm, is saying one thing, their phenoplasm is saying another.

They don't have the playing personnel to play the old way, they do have the personnel to play more expansively. Particularly in their wider squad.

[ronk]

I can see no logic for keeping a guy who hasn't won a trophy in potentially four seasons, has overseen limited development of the Munster game plan despite huge resources and has had at least three successful coaches leave from under his wing on for another two.

Nor me.

I think van Graan is a decent guy and is probably a very good employee and a good boss to his players in many ways – that counts for a lot. Who you are as a person is important.

As a coach at professional level, I think he's missing a few tools that he should already have by virtue of being at this level, and he is missing anything that makes him stand out.

I don't measure a coach's decency by how well they look after the stars, it's important but they all know they need to do that. It's the players on the way out who you are cutting or are leaving for elsewhere that's important. Van Graan failed that test. He's merciless and has shown no appetite whatsoever for giving lads a day in the shopwindow.

He's signed players and started looking elsewhere immediately. He's humiliated players he was forcing out, like putting 2 scrumhalves on the bench in the Cara Cup and not giving them a start on a different day.

Leo for example isn't like that. He picked Carbery for the Heineken Cup final when he could easily have gone for Ross Byrne (who'd played 10 a lot more during the season and had been loyal) and he started Jordi Murphy. He recalled Jack McGrath for the next Heineken Cup final when form didn't warrant it.

That's not the issue. There are 4. He's not winning or looking like winning. He's spending enough that he should be winning. He hasn't been good enough at developing talent for the Irish team. The rugby isn't good to watch.

Without getting one of those things right there isn't a lot to recommend him.

[jezzer]

Problem with that is that or their DNA, their genoplasm, is saying one thing, I heir phenoplasm is saying another.

They don't have the playing personnel to play the old way, they do have the personnel to play more expansively. Particularly in their wider squad.

True, but it hasn't stopped them before. It's a long time since their squad truly suited a power game, but I really believe there's a fear there in committing to a style the other provinces are playing better than them. I don't know where in the setup that fear lies, but it's been enough to sweep out any coaches who've championed a shift in philosophy.

[ronk]

Munster never played a power game. They just kept coming round the corner playing off the 9.

Their game was built on hard work, good execution of low risk and running straight.

[jezzer]

Munster never played a power game. They just kept coming round the corner playing off the 9.

Their game was built on hard work, good execution of low risk and running straight.

To contradict your contradiction would take us into defining what a power game is, which would be facile given it isn't in the dictionary somewhere. I think we both know what the other means.

[riocard911]

Just listened to Woody on OTB and he was quietly seething about Larkham going and Munster's continued trust in JVG and his game plan.

I can sympathise because people like to watch nice rugby, people like winning rugby and people like to see their provincial heroes play for Ireland. Munster will struggle to achieve those things with JVG at the helm and are even less likely to now that Larkham is gone.

But.... you do have to ask what the point is of trying to create Munstertainment in Limerick. It's like England and the EU - "we see the logic, there are huge financial and social benefits, but at the end of the day it's just not us". And England were right. For all its plusses, bowing to Angela Merkel and her next incarnation is not in the collective DNA. Full stop.

Munster have the same dilemma. What makes sense versus what feels right. Head versus heart. Well, it doesn't take an exhaustive troll through Munster's pro setup history to see which side is going to win. NOBODY who has tried to coach Munster to open attacking rugby has survived. JVG is about to get extended - does anyone honestly think the Munster brains trust is planning on getting Munster to follow the collective expansive gameplan with Johann at the wheel?

Munster, in Coombes, Casey and Carbery actually have the 8/9/10 axis to make the switch - and some other pieces in Killer, Snyman, POM, Conway, Daly to run it.

But they won't. And probably they shouldn't. Too much cultural resistance. The worry that they'd be playing "Leinster's game" (tho the Irish system is prob as much or more Connacht's game) and not succeeding as well at it.

Larkham is the latest coach sent packing because he couldn't implement his plan. If Munster recruit another expansive rugby disciple, he won't be the last.

Prendy might fit because he'll know to moderate his philosophy and Munster could end up with a halfway house, which for them could be ideal (or could be falling between two stools).….

PS The above is my honest and genuine opinion. It's not written to troll anyone. If it was, I'd have posted it in PR or mf.com!

I'd agree with that. Munster see themselves as Ireland's Boks, playing the forward-dominated power game, in contrast to the more NZ-influenced Leinstertainers up the road. And that, my friends, is the rock they are perishing on for a decade now and will continue to do so - see their answer to nearly every problem being to buy in more and ever bigger Saffers.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Just listened to Woody on OTB and he was quietly seething about Larkham going and Munster's continued trust in JVG and his game plan.

I can sympathise because people like to watch nice rugby, people like winning rugby and people like to see their provincial heroes play for Ireland. Munster will struggle to achieve those things with JVG at the helm and are even less likely to now that Larkham is gone.

But.... you do have to ask what the point is of trying to create Munstertainment in Limerick. It's like England and the EU - "we see the logic, there are huge financial and social benefits, but at the end of the day it's just not us". And England were right. For all its plusses, bowing to Angela Merkel and her next incarnation is not in the collective DNA. Full stop.

Munster have the same dilemma. What makes sense versus what feels right. Head versus heart. Well, it doesn't take an exhaustive troll through Munster's pro setup history to see which side is going to win. NOBODY who has tried to coach Munster to open attacking rugby has survived. JVG is about to get extended - does anyone honestly think the Munster brains trust is planning on getting Munster to follow the collective expansive gameplan with Johann at the wheel?

Munster, in Coombes, Casey and Carbery actually have the 8/9/10 axis to make the switch - and some other pieces in Killer, Snyman, POM, Conway, Daly to run it.

But they won't. And probably they shouldn't. Too much cultural resistance. The worry that they'd be playing "Leinster's game" (tho the Irish system is prob as much or more Connacht's game) and not succeeding as well at it.

Larkham is the latest coach sent packing because he couldn't implement his plan. If Munster recruit another expansive rugby disciple, he won't be the last.

Prendy might fit because he'll know to moderate his philosophy and Munster could end up with a halfway house, which for them could be ideal (or could be falling between two stools).….

PS The above is my honest and genuine opinion. It's not written to troll anyone. If it was, I'd have posted it in PR or mf.com!

was it not Mr. Wood himself who triumphed the removal of Scott Penney to benefit Anthony Foley - if they'd persevered with Penney you'd have to think they'd be in a much better place now...

[munster#1]

Just listened to Woody on OTB and he was quietly seething about Larkham going and Munster's continued trust in JVG and his game plan.

I can sympathise because people like to watch nice rugby, people like winning rugby and people like to see their provincial heroes play for Ireland. Munster will struggle to achieve those things with JVG at the helm and are even less likely to now that Larkham is gone.

But.... you do have to ask what the point is of trying to create Munstertainment in Limerick. It's like England and the EU - "we see the logic, there are huge financial and social benefits, but at the end of the day it's just not us". And England were right. For all its plusses, bowing to Angela Merkel and her next incarnation is not in the collective DNA. Full stop.

Munster have the same dilemma. What makes sense versus what feels right. Head versus heart. Well, it doesn't take an exhaustive troll through Munster's pro setup history to see which side is going to win. NOBODY who has tried to coach Munster to open attacking rugby has survived. JVG is about to get extended - does anyone honestly think the Munster brains trust is planning on getting Munster to follow the collective expansive gameplan with Johann at the wheel?

Munster, in Coombes, Casey and Carbery actually have the 8/9/10 axis to make the switch - and some other pieces in Killer, Snyman, POM, Conway, Daly to run it.

But they won't. And probably they shouldn't. Too much cultural resistance. The worry that they'd be playing "Leinster's game" (tho the Irish system is prob as much or more Connacht's game) and not succeeding as well at it.

Larkham is the latest coach sent packing because he couldn't implement his plan. If Munster recruit another expansive rugby disciple, he won't be the last.

Prendy might fit because he'll know to moderate his philosophy and Munster could end up with a halfway house, which for them could be ideal (or could be falling between two stools).….

PS The above is my honest and genuine opinion. It's not written to troll anyone. If it was, I'd have posted it in PR or mf.com!

was it not Mr. Wood himself who triumphed the removal of Scott Penney to benefit Anthony Foley - if they'd persevered with Penney you'd have to think they'd be in a much better place now...

I think you mean Rob Penney, and if so, his career and results have not been exactly stellar since his departure from Munster.

[Oldschoolsocks]

Just listened to Woody on OTB and he was quietly seething about Larkham going and Munster's continued trust in JVG and his game plan.

I can sympathise because people like to watch nice rugby, people like winning rugby and people like to see their provincial heroes play for Ireland. Munster will struggle to achieve those things with JVG at the helm and are even less likely to now that Larkham is gone.

But.... you do have to ask what the point is of trying to create Munstertainment in Limerick. It's like England and the EU - "we see the logic, there are huge financial and social benefits, but at the end of the day it's just not us". And England were right. For all its plusses, bowing to Angela Merkel and her next incarnation is not in the collective DNA. Full stop.

Munster have the same dilemma. What makes sense versus what feels right. Head versus heart. Well, it doesn't take an exhaustive troll through Munster's pro setup history to see which side is going to win. NOBODY who has tried to coach Munster to open attacking rugby has survived. JVG is about to get extended - does anyone honestly think the Munster brains trust is planning on getting Munster to follow the collective expansive gameplan with Johann at the wheel?

Munster, in Coombes, Casey and Carbery actually have the 8/9/10 axis to make the switch - and some other pieces in Killer, Snyman, POM, Conway, Daly to run it.

But they won't. And probably they shouldn't. Too much cultural resistance. The worry that they'd be playing "Leinster's game" (tho the Irish system is prob as much or more Connacht's game) and not succeeding as well at it.

Larkham is the latest coach sent packing because he couldn't implement his plan. If Munster recruit another expansive rugby disciple, he won't be the last.

Prendy might fit because he'll know to moderate his philosophy and Munster could end up with a halfway house, which for them could be ideal (or could be falling between two stools).….

PS The above is my honest and genuine opinion. It's not written to troll anyone. If it was, I'd have posted it in PR or mf.com!

was it not Mr. Wood himself who triumphed the removal of Scott Penney to benefit Anthony Foley - if they'd persevered with Penney you'd have to think they'd be in a much better place now...

I think you mean Rob Penney, and if so, his career and results have not been exactly stellar since his departure from Munster.

I did, thx for the correction.

the change in playing philosophy would have much better suited the squad down south, regardless if he'd won anything with Munster.

on top of that i doubt he would be targeting an 80% winning percentage,

the point of the post however, is how instrumental Keith Wood was in setting up the current scenario in the first place

[Oldschool]

To paraphrase one of their own, Roy Keane.
Munster need to -
Match power with power and then let skill take over.
Leinster may not always be able to match power with power but if they get close enough there is usually enough skill in the team to win a game.
Larkham was an attempt by Munster to address the skill thing but a Boks coach is not the man you want in charge if you are going the skills route.

[Fan with smartphone]

I always found Munster thrilling. The famous try against Tolouse sticks out, but they had so many great displays over a long period. Like Leinster are extremely forward orientated now this past few years at least. Are they thrilling? Well sometimes the tries arrive a bit too predictably, but that is one hell of a first world problem. I don’t hear too many complaints. Their problem as I see it has been expectation management and putting the cart before the horse for a while. They keep thinking they are almost there and then haven’t really, truly put the long-term groundwork in, because the temptation to delay that and win now has them away mad. In reality they’ve had a good side, as good as any on their day, but it’s not enough to be as good as anybody. You have to be demonstrably better. Hence the semi-finals.

Penny I think was a good man, but he preached a wide-wide game that had absolutely no bite. Now that’s maybe not what he was trying to coach, but that’s what he was getting. And it wasn’t just Munster, he went to the Waratahs and the same thing plagued him. It feels like it could’ve been an easy fix and I’d love to see Penny coaching and doing well again, but he seemed to get the balance wrong between trying to manipulate and stretch the defence for the next phase too much and never got any gaddam go forward.

I do think under Anthony Foley, god rest him, and then Rassie Erasmus they steadied that ship. JvG when I see those quotes about the bulls today sounds like a man keen enough to get back home. Maybe I’m wrong there. If they were to end up looking again and presumably O’gara and O’Connell aren’t options, and they are looking south, I’ve been banging the drum on Brad Thorn a while now. A lock forward suits the image of what they might want, but he has developed young players at Queensland, whilst playing a very likeable brand of exciting, tough rugby along wuth it. I think that CV is particularly suited to coaching an Irish province and is the skillset of what we should be looking for. He might have other fish to fry, but he’d be a very good fit in my opinion. I’d love to see a homegrown coach too tbh, but whether van Grann continues or they end up back on the dating scene, I think there needs to be an acceptance of where it’s at right now before they can make real headway. They are going to have very few front line Irish internationals and really need to do the time and develop from within.

[blockhead]

Do we really want everyone playing the same way?
Is everything to be geared towards winning a World Cup quarter-final?
I ike that we're the 2-seater coupe's and they're the massey-fergusons.
It gives our rivalry real context.
I like the URC, the Heino, the Six Nations, I like winning those things.

BTW
Brumbies have confirmed that Stephen Larkham will return to the club as head coach after he departs Munster this summer

[dropkick]

I always found Munster thrilling. The famous try against Tolouse sticks out, but they had so many great displays over a long period. Like Leinster are extremely forward orientated now this past few years at least. Are they thrilling? Well sometimes the tries arrive a bit too predictably, but that is one hell of a first world problem. I don’t hear too many complaints. Their problem as I see it has been expectation management and putting the cart before the horse for a while. They keep thinking they are almost there and then haven’t really, truly put the long-term groundwork in, because the temptation to delay that and win now has them away mad. In reality they’ve had a good side, as good as any on their day, but it’s not enough to be as good as anybody. You have to be demonstrably better. Hence the semi-finals.

Penny I think was a good man, but he preached a wide-wide game that had absolutely no bite. Now that’s maybe not what he was trying to coach, but that’s what he was getting. And it wasn’t just Munster, he went to the Waratahs and the same thing plagued him. It feels like it could’ve been an easy fix and I’d love to see Penny coaching and doing well again, but he seemed to get the balance wrong between trying to manipulate and stretch the defence for the next phase too much and never got any gaddam go forward.

I do think under Anthony Foley, god rest him, and then Rassie Erasmus they steadied that ship. JvG when I see those quotes about the bulls today sounds like a man keen enough to get back home. Maybe I’m wrong there. If they were to end up looking again and presumably O’gara and O’Connell aren’t options, and they are looking south, I’ve been banging the drum on Brad Thorn a while now. A lock forward suits the image of what they might want, but he has developed young players at Queensland, whilst playing a very likeable brand of exciting, tough rugby along wuth it. I think that CV is particularly suited to coaching an Irish province and is the skillset of what we should be looking for. He might have other fish to fry, but he’d be a very good fit in my opinion. I’d love to see a homegrown coach too tbh, but whether van Grann continues or they end up back on the dating scene, I think there needs to be an acceptance of where it’s at right now before they can make real headway. They are going to have very few front line Irish internationals and really need to do the time and develop from within.

I don't agree about Penney. He got munster to 2 Heineken semi finals and came close to winning both. Got away draws too I might add. He had 2 seasons playing a similar style to Connacht under Pat Lam. It all clicked in Lams 3rd season.


There was a big push for Foley in the media led by his close Friend Keith Wood. Foley was Penneys forward coach and made it clear he didn't agree with Penneys style of play which gives an indication of what Penney was up against. Far from steadying the ship, the ship was sinking with Foley in charge. That's why they got Rassie to steady it.

[Oldschool]

I always found Munster thrilling. The famous try against Tolouse sticks out, but they had so many great displays over a long period. Like Leinster are extremely forward orientated now this past few years at least. Are they thrilling? Well sometimes the tries arrive a bit too predictably, but that is one hell of a first world problem. I don’t hear too many complaints. Their problem as I see it has been expectation management and putting the cart before the horse for a while. They keep thinking they are almost there and then haven’t really, truly put the long-term groundwork in, because the temptation to delay that and win now has them away mad. In reality they’ve had a good side, as good as any on their day, but it’s not enough to be as good as anybody. You have to be demonstrably better. Hence the semi-finals.

Penny I think was a good man, but he preached a wide-wide game that had absolutely no bite. Now that’s maybe not what he was trying to coach, but that’s what he was getting. And it wasn’t just Munster, he went to the Waratahs and the same thing plagued him. It feels like it could’ve been an easy fix and I’d love to see Penny coaching and doing well again, but he seemed to get the balance wrong between trying to manipulate and stretch the defence for the next phase too much and never got any gaddam go forward.

I do think under Anthony Foley, god rest him, and then Rassie Erasmus they steadied that ship. JvG when I see those quotes about the bulls today sounds like a man keen enough to get back home. Maybe I’m wrong there. If they were to end up looking again and presumably O’gara and O’Connell aren’t options, and they are looking south, I’ve been banging the drum on Brad Thorn a while now. A lock forward suits the image of what they might want, but he has developed young players at Queensland, whilst playing a very likeable brand of exciting, tough rugby along wuth it. I think that CV is particularly suited to coaching an Irish province and is the skillset of what we should be looking for. He might have other fish to fry, but he’d be a very good fit in my opinion. I’d love to see a homegrown coach too tbh, but whether van Grann continues or they end up back on the dating scene, I think there needs to be an acceptance of where it’s at right now before they can make real headway. They are going to have very few front line Irish internationals and really need to do the time and develop from within.

I don't agree about Penney. He got munster to 2 Heineken semi finals and came close to winning both. Got away draws too I might add. He had 2 seasons playing a similar style to Connacht under Pat Lam. It all clicked in Lams 3rd season.


There was a big push for Foley in the media led by his close Friend Keith Wood. Foley was Penneys forward coach and made it clear he didn't agree with Penneys style of play which gives an indication of what Penney was up against. Far from steadying the ship, the ship was sinking with Foley in charge. That's why they got Rassie to steady it.

The Truth

[Oldschool]

Do we really want everyone playing the same way?
Is everything to be geared towards winning a World Cup quarter-final?
I ike that we're the 2-seater coupe's and they're the massey-fergusons.
It gives our rivalry real context.
I like the URC, the Heino, the Six Nations, I like winning those things.

BTW
Brumbies have confirmed that Stephen Larkham will return to the club as head coach after he departs Munster this summer

We certainly don't want one province playing in a totally different style to the other three provinces.
It's not just about the RWC, it's easily as much about the 6Ns too.

[munster#1]

Looking at the current Munster squad in comparison to what JVG inherited, and to me at least, it is clear that he has done a great job off of the field.

He has reviewed the structures from the ground up, and cleared dead wood from the academy and senior squads, added a large number of academy graduates to the senior squad and supplemented them with top class signings.

He also put together a great team of coaches, which now includes a brilliant rugby brain running the academy and development structures.

I would love to see JVG stay on in a DOR role like with Cullen, and sign a proven head coach just like Leinster have in Lancaster.

IMO the current Munster squad and setup would be seen as a much more attractive role for any head coach than it has since Kidney left.

I would love to see some local coaches come into the setup, someone like Prendergast or McNamara as backs coach, and obviously rog as head coach.