Grahamunster - Graham Rowntree's Munster 2022/2023

[riocard911]

That was an atrocious game. The second half was particularly bad.

I don't know what to say about Joey Carbery. How many passes did he throw to the ground in half an hour, three? A catastrophically bad performance.

The Zebre lineout was the most inept lineout I have ever seen in a pro game.

Munster didn't score in the whole of the second half and lost it 0-5. That's poor.

[hugonaut]

One thing which I hadn't really accounted for this season at Munster was the difficulty of teaching old dogs new tricks.

Munster have been coached by South Africans for six years and both Erasmus and van Graan instituted what you could describe as a a typically South African gameplan. That's a long, long time to have habits drilled into you.

That wasn't an entirely green Munster team out there ... in fact the starting pack wasn't green at all. They averaged out at 102 Munster appearances/player. They are having a hard time putting things together under the new coaching staff up front. The backline attack is simply not functioning at an effective level for any pro team.

Zebre finished sixteenth [last] in the league last year, the Dragons fifteenth [second last] and Cardiff fourteenth [third last] ... they're the only three teams Munster have played so far.

EDIT: By way of contrast, Connacht have played the Bulls [beaten finalists], Ulster [beaten semi-finalists] and the Stormers [winners].

[LeinsterLeader]

Gotta say I'm loving this version of Zebre though. 21-0 down after 25 minutes in years gone by was probably going to end up 60+. To win the next 55 minutes 0-5 is some achievement. These guys aren't watching the scoreboard and are just playing from first minutes to last. That's a great base to start from.

[ronk]

Gotta say I'm loving this version of Zebre though. 21-0 down after 25 minutes in years gone by was probably going to end up 60+. To win the next 55 minutes 0-5 is some achievement. These guys aren't watching the scoreboard and are just playing from first minutes to last. That's a great base to start from.

If they’re the 16th best team in the league then we’re the best league in the world.

[blockhead]

Gotta say I'm loving this version of Zebre though. 21-0 down after 25 minutes in years gone by was probably going to end up 60+. To win the next 55 minutes 0-5 is some achievement. These guys aren't watching the scoreboard and are just playing from first minutes to last. That's a great base to start from.

If they’re the 16th best team in the league then we’re the best league in the world.

Well said Ronk.
I hope Zebre keep this up for the rest of the league. They are the exact opposite of what Zebre have been since their inception as a club, i.e. shiiiiite!
And Benetton winning too, go Italia.
With regards to Munster

[ronk]

Gotta say I'm loving this version of Zebre though. 21-0 down after 25 minutes in years gone by was probably going to end up 60+. To win the next 55 minutes 0-5 is some achievement. These guys aren't watching the scoreboard and are just playing from first minutes to last. That's a great base to start from.

If they’re the 16th best team in the league then we’re the best league in the world.

Well said Ronk.
I hope Zebre keep this up for the rest of the league. They are the exact opposite of what Zebre have been since their inception as a club, i.e. shiiiiite!
And Benetton winning too, go Italia.
With regards to Munster

We don't have to play them again, so we can certainly wish them well. They got 9 points last year. They're already on 4, all bonus points.

They didn't get anytime today but they do look improved for an away fixture, they have potential. They've also had some of their toughest fixtures already.

[munster#1]

Great to see Munster off the mark.
They put in a really good first half against a inch improved Zebre team who ran 2 of the best teams in the league close, gaining 2 BPs per game.
While Munster did implode in the second half, and looked like a team with a lot in need of improvements, it is good to see that they didn’t allow Zebre to run in 5 tries or even really look like they would be close to that.
Munster definitely came away without a point that really could have been secured in the first half, but at least we seen some solid improvements from the last 2 games, and we can see the interest that is there with the number of posts relating to the game.

Healy gets very little praise, but it was really evident that Munster lost a lot of shape and composure once he went off.
He goes about his business very quietly, but has really improved his game management, and kept Munster in the right parts of the pitch when he was on.

Healy is not the only youngster who did well,
Edogbo made a great impact when he came on, looking far better than many making only his second pro appearance.

Philips and Campbell both looked really sharp on the wings, although I would prefer to see Campbell at 15.

Scott Buckley also had a good game when he came in,
He is a big unit, and I love the speed he can throw into the lineout. This speed of delivery makes it hard for the opposition to steal.

Knox has improved in the scrum, and worked well around the field. He is still only 23, which is very young for a TH.
He is approaching his 30th cap, which considering his age and injury profile, is a decent return.

One player that really stood out was 18 year old Quinn.
He looks like a player ready to make the step up despite his youth.
The energy he brought to the game was incredible, I really look forward to seeing how he develops, but really hope he is not pushed too hard, because at 18 his body is still developing.
The

[dropkick]

Gotta say I'm loving this version of Zebre though. 21-0 down after 25 minutes in years gone by was probably going to end up 60+. To win the next 55 minutes 0-5 is some achievement. These guys aren't watching the scoreboard and are just playing from first minutes to last. That's a great base to start from.

Good to see them much improved this season. The commentary was saying the Italian union have invested more in trying to make them stronger and their big clear out seems to be working.


Lenihan had a gripe saying 50% of their new recruits are not Italian qualified but theres no point having poor Italian qualified players ahead of good non Italian players. They badly need to strengthen first and then worry about Italian qualified players.

[hugonaut]

The phrase 'papering over the cracks' is used way too often and inappropriately with regards to Munster ... so let me be the next person to do it. If anybody took that win as encouraging, they're trying to paper over the cracks.

That level of performance against Zebre is going to lose most matches. In the simplest terms, you cannot rely on teams having a] one of the worst lineout performances in living memory; and b] losing three inside backs to injury in the first half.

Certainly Munster's forwards, in particular Peter O'Mahony and Tadgh Beirne, can take credit for stealing Zebre ball, but you can't take credit for crooked throws. Zebre had 15 lineouts in the first half: three were crooked throws and no fewer than six were stolen, including four inside the Munster 22.

Of the six they won, one of those was spoiled ball. Their lineout success rate was 33% from 15 throws. That's the worst I can recall seeing from a double figure sample size in the pro game. Historically bad.

Secondly, Zebre simply suffered a lot of misfortune in that game:
1. Cronje [No13] was injured on 12 mins and replaced by Smith Jr;
2. the other centre [Lucchin, No12] was injured on 30 mins and replaced by Pani; and then
3. Smith Jr, the replacement, was injured on 36 mins and had to be replaced by the last remaining back substitute, Casilio, a sub-scrum-half, with the starting scrum-half Fusco moving to the centre.

It's a huge disruption to any team's efforts, both in attack and defence. Again, this is not something that is likely to happen again.

[ronk]

I think Munster desperately needed a win of any description.

The nature of the win wasn't especially promising itself, what was more promising was 2 teenagers playing off the bench and looking promising.

[hugonaut]

I think Munster desperately needed a win of any description.

The nature of the win wasn't especially promising itself, what was more promising was 2 teenagers playing off the bench and looking promising.

It's good for teenagers to look promising, but pragmatically it's going to be 3-4 years minimum before they can meaningfully influence meaningful games. This is just the way it is. Anything you do at first grade level as a 19 or 20 year old that isn't a mistake is lauded. I'm not saying it's wrong to be enthusiastic, I'm just being pragmatic.

Is Fineen Wycherley distinctly better now with 88 Munster appearances behind him than he was with 20? No, in my opinion. Is he worse? No. He's probably a better player overall. But he was getting much better notices back in 2018-19 than he is these days.

Carbery is supposed to be an international level player ... he turned in the sort of performance that would see an academy player get sh*tcanned for the rest of the season as not up to it. He's supposed to be influencing games now.

Instead, he's influencing them against Munster by playing like a drain. He can't get in the team, and when he comes on, he give passes to nobody. He threw as many passes to the ground in half an hour as the starting Zebre hooker Ribaldi threw crooked throws in the first forty minutes. It was startlingly bad.

It's better to have promising prospects than not to have them; that should go without saying. But trusting that it's all going to come together "in the future" isn't going to roast the parships. JJ was going to be a great, Nagle was going to be the next great Munster lock, John Madigan and Darren O'Shea were going to be a great second row partnership, Dave O'Callaghan was the prototypical blindside, Paddy Butler was to the manor born as a No8, Danny Barnes was going to be Munster's answer in the long term to their centre problem etc. etc.

I'm not picking on those guys out of any sense of animus towards them, but just to illustrate that it's not an automatic transition between having some good showings as a nipper to being a productive week-in, week-out, season-in, season-out, professional player. It's hard. And as a coach, you need your birds in the hand to perform.

[munster#1]

I think Munster desperately needed a win of any description.

The nature of the win wasn't especially promising itself, what was more promising was 2 teenagers playing off the bench and looking promising.

It's good for teenagers to look promising, but pragmatically it's going to be 3-4 years minimum before they can meaningfully influence meaningful games. This is just the way it is. Anything you do at first grade level as a 19 or 20 year old that isn't a mistake is lauded. I'm not saying it's wrong to be enthusiastic, I'm just being pragmatic.

Is Fineen Wycherley distinctly better now with 88 Munster appearances behind him than he was with 20? No, in my opinion. Is he worse? No. He's probably a better player overall. But he was getting much better notices back in 2018-19 than he is these days.

Carbery is supposed to be an international level player ... he turned in the sort of performance that would see an academy player get sh*tcanned for the rest of the season as not up to it. He's supposed to be influencing games now.

Instead, he's influencing them against Munster by playing like a drain. He can't get in the team, and when he comes on, he give passes to nobody. He threw as many passes to the ground in half an hour as the starting Zebre hooker Ribaldi threw crooked throws in the first forty minutes. It was startlingly bad.

It's better to have promising prospects than not to have them; that should go without saying. But trusting that it's all going to come together "in the future" isn't going to roast the parships. JJ was going to be a great, Nagle was going to be the next great Munster lock, John Madigan and Darren O'Shea were going to be a great second row partnership, Dave O'Callaghan was the prototypical blindside, Paddy Butler was to the manor born as a No8, Danny Barnes was going to be Munster's answer in the long term to their centre problem etc. etc.

I'm not picking on those guys out of any sense of animus towards them, but just to illustrate that it's not an automatic transition between having some good showings as a nipper to being a productive week-in, week-out, season-in, season-out, professional player. It's hard. And as a coach, you need your birds in the hand to perform.

By god you have a serious chip on your shoulder for all things Munster.
You are almost as bad as that tripe that the demented mole peddle, almost, but not at that level yet but you are getting close.

Not one but 2 essay like posts on how poor Munster are, without any meaningful insight or objectivity.

Munster are not playing well, that is without doubt and I would say the number of Munster supporters who think they are are is probably in the single digits and most likely related to the players.
But, your need to attack any positivity about Munster is a real indicator on your myopic view of all things red.
You even found a way to turn a positive post about blooding 2 teenagers into a negative??

Munster are 3 games into a season with a completely new makeup of a coaching team, one where a significant percentage of their squad missed the preseason with the coaching team, and now 10 of the next generation, who were actually around to learn the new game plan, are in SA with team Ireland.

Again, I am not even remotely trying to say that Munster are good, but I do wonder why you feel you need to attack any positivity?

If Munster came out of the blocks and won all 3 games with ease everyone would be saying not to get ahead of one’s self, and that no silverware is won is September, likewise now that the are 1 win from 3, I would say that only a fool would get too far ahead of themselves.

[The Doc]

By god you have a serious chip on your shoulder for all things Munster.
You are almost as bad as that tripe that the demented mole peddle, almost, but not at that level yet but you are getting close.

I hate to break something to you...





Sent from my LE2123 using Tapatalk

[LeRouxIsPHat]

They do have a load of brilliantly talented young players but I think it was you Hugo who said about there being a complete void of players that they didn’t produce after Earls, POM, Murray, and Zebo came through and it really is very striking right now.

I think both Munster and Connacht need to invest in a handful of players who are solid experienced leaders who can provide a decent core week in week out and improve the environment. They can’t afford top quality but it doesn’t need to be, it could even be players like 37 year old Creevy at London Irish or 39 year old Gopperth at Leicester. I’m not saying they’d be ideal signings but my point is just that I think the whole team would benefit from a couple of experienced heads like that. The homegrown contingent in their mid to late 20’s don’t cut it and instead one of the big names they brought in and are relying upon to do that job is Fekitoa who’s very error prone and ill disciplined.

I do appreciate that it’ll take time for the coaches to leave their mark but I struggle to downplay how big a deal it is that Rowntree was already part of a failing environment and has somehow been promoted. People might say that Farrell managed to turn around a similar situation with Ireland but that squad was much stronger, had been great as recently as 2018, had Covid as an excuse, and as much as I was critical of Farrell I would still say there was an improvement from 2019 when confidence had gone through the floor. To me the Munster situation is different and needed a clean sweep.

They might well end up being the biggest beneficiaries from the EI tour. If some of those lads come bouncing back into camp after having strong tours and are untouched by what must be a fairly sh!t environment then they could well boost that team if they can take some good form and positive vibes back with them.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

By god you have a serious chip on your shoulder for all things Munster.
You are almost as bad as that tripe that the demented mole peddle, almost, but not at that level yet but you are getting close.

I hate to break something to you...

I hate to break it to YOU…but I don’t think anyone actually listens to a podcast that they think is tripe. Well maybe M#1 does because he’s a wum but nobody legit.

[munster#1]

They do have a load of brilliantly talented young players but I think it was you Hugo who said about there being a complete void of players that they didn’t produce after Earls, POM, Murray, and Zebo came through and it really is very striking right now.

I think both Munster and Connacht need to invest in a handful of players who are solid experienced leaders who can provide a decent core week in week out and improve the environment. They can’t afford top quality but it doesn’t need to be, it could even be players like 37 year old Creevy at London Irish or 39 year old Gopperth at Leicester. I’m not saying they’d be ideal signings but my point is just that I think the whole team would benefit from a couple of experienced heads like that. The homegrown contingent in their mid to late 20’s don’t cut it and instead one of the big names they brought in and are relying upon to do that job is Fekitoa who’s very error prone and ill disciplined.

I do appreciate that it’ll take time for the coaches to leave their mark but I struggle to downplay how big a deal it is that Rowntree was already part of a failing environment and has somehow been promoted. People might say that Farrell managed to turn around a similar situation with Ireland but that squad was much stronger, had been great as recently as 2018, had Covid as an excuse, and as much as I was critical of Farrell I would still say there was an improvement from 2019 when confidence had gone through the floor. To me the Munster situation is different and needed a clean sweep.

They might well end up being the biggest beneficiaries from the EI tour. If some of those lads come bouncing back into camp after having strong tours and are untouched by what must be a fairly sh!t environment then they could well boost that team if they can take some good form and positive vibes back with them.

As a Munster fan I am very excited by the crop of players coming through at the moment.
There is some real talent in the under 24 group, and I will be surprised if we don’t see more and more Munster players making the step up to international level in the next couple of years.

The problem with trying to facilitate these players is that Munster were forced to let go some of the players who would have fitted the bill for the type of player you say they are now missing.
Munster like all teams were forced to make difficult decisions in order to lower the salary bill to try to mitigate the impact Covid had on the bottom line.

I think you are right in saying that it could well take time, and unfortunately sport does not allow for patience, but I do hope that this coaching ticket are given the time required.

On Rowntree, Cullen would be another example of a forwards coach who was part of an under performing ticket, so there is clear precedent apart from Farrell.

[pangurban1]

I think Munster desperately needed a win of any description.

The nature of the win wasn't especially promising itself, what was more promising was 2 teenagers playing off the bench and looking promising.

It's good for teenagers to look promising, but pragmatically it's going to be 3-4 years minimum before they can meaningfully influence meaningful games. This is just the way it is. Anything you do at first grade level as a 19 or 20 year old that isn't a mistake is lauded. I'm not saying it's wrong to be enthusiastic, I'm just being pragmatic.

Is Fineen Wycherley distinctly better now with 88 Munster appearances behind him than he was with 20? No, in my opinion. Is he worse? No. He's probably a better player overall. But he was getting much better notices back in 2018-19 than he is these days.

Carbery is supposed to be an international level player ... he turned in the sort of performance that would see an academy player get sh*tcanned for the rest of the season as not up to it. He's supposed to be influencing games now.

Instead, he's influencing them against Munster by playing like a drain. He can't get in the team, and when he comes on, he give passes to nobody. He threw as many passes to the ground in half an hour as the starting Zebre hooker Ribaldi threw crooked throws in the first forty minutes. It was startlingly bad.

It's better to have promising prospects than not to have them; that should go without saying. But trusting that it's all going to come together "in the future" isn't going to roast the parships. JJ was going to be a great, Nagle was going to be the next great Munster lock, John Madigan and Darren O'Shea were going to be a great second row partnership, Dave O'Callaghan was the prototypical blindside, Paddy Butler was to the manor born as a No8, Danny Barnes was going to be Munster's answer in the long term to their centre problem etc. etc.

I'm not picking on those guys out of any sense of animus towards them, but just to illustrate that it's not an automatic transition between having some good showings as a nipper to being a productive week-in, week-out, season-in, season-out, professional player. It's hard. And as a coach, you need your birds in the hand to perform.

looks to me as if Edbogo(spelling?) will make it.

[ronk]

Historically Munster have had spurts of development when the need was big enough. It's promising that Munster are giving chances to young players and they may get a chance to accelerate their development.

Those guys were somehow going to be great but Munster never actually developed them. There no point in getting too excited until some of these players actually become front line internationals.

Edogbo is a big unit, which makes it untraditional that Munster are giving him a chance.

Wycherley is a fairly good example of the problem. He's 24 he has 88 caps (many of them meaningful matches), he should be a poster boy for the future. But really he's just another hard-working undersized lock with an angry face. He's stayed fit when higher profile players have been injured and he's raking up caps. He's a valuable squad member with a very limited international future. He plays to fans expectations of how Munster play but he's actually a barrier to them playing expansive rugby. He's on track to run up the sort of numbers that will put him ahead of Archer, Duncan Williams, Billy Holland. That makes him doubly valuable to Munster as he won't get international restrictions and he'll have very few bad games in a long career. Every squad needs players like him, they just also need to be able the develop the others.

Rowntree has inherited the flake problem and I'm pretty sure the fix is out of his hands. He'll get chances for as long as he has the backing of Faz. Injuries to Harry Byrne and now Frawley have bought him time. Healy can start a few games without setting off alarm bells. The bigger short term threat comes from Crowley on the Emerging Ireland tour. If the tour continues to be a good one for him then he may come back with the international backing to push Carbery out.

[dropkick]

In the matches so far this season Crowley has made a big impact when replacing Healy. Carbery has done the opposite. So as of now the rankings would be 1 Crowley, 2 Healy and 3 Carbery.


As for young players, at least now there are some coming through but yes it will take time to replace the mid 20s and above generation.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

Murray deserves a special mention for kicking the ball away near the end of the game yesterday. They’d got the turnover they needed and Beirne had made a decent carry yet Murray booted it away? I’d say the coaches and players were fuming with him.