URC 22/23

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leinsterforever
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by leinsterforever »

hugonaut wrote: May 7th, 2023, 12:41 pm Grafting on a quarter-final stage to a league is one step too f*cking far. Really don't like it.

There was a lot of criticism of the European Cup schedule for taking four rounds of pool games to eliminate eight teams out of twenty-four. The URC has taken eighteen rounds of games to eliminate eight teams out of sixteen. And then the league becomes a cup. And there's already a cup.

There's already a reward for finishing in the top half of the table: you get to play in a more prestigious and more lucrative cup competition for the following season. The idea that you can compete for a league title having finished eighth in the league ... it's ridiculous.

Either go to the barrage system, where the top two get a bye week, third place hosts sixth place and fourth place hosts fifth place; or go to semi-finals, with all four teams getting a bye week, first hosting fourth and second hosting third.
The NRL finals system looks interesting too. Something like that might be an option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRL_finals_system
Keith
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Keith »

leinsterforever wrote: May 10th, 2023, 5:31 pm
hugonaut wrote: May 7th, 2023, 12:41 pm Grafting on a quarter-final stage to a league is one step too f*cking far. Really don't like it.

There was a lot of criticism of the European Cup schedule for taking four rounds of pool games to eliminate eight teams out of twenty-four. The URC has taken eighteen rounds of games to eliminate eight teams out of sixteen. And then the league becomes a cup. And there's already a cup.

There's already a reward for finishing in the top half of the table: you get to play in a more prestigious and more lucrative cup competition for the following season. The idea that you can compete for a league title having finished eighth in the league ... it's ridiculous.

Either go to the barrage system, where the top two get a bye week, third place hosts sixth place and fourth place hosts fifth place; or go to semi-finals, with all four teams getting a bye week, first hosting fourth and second hosting third.
The NRL finals system looks interesting too. Something like that might be an option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRL_finals_system
The NRL is currently one of the best (if not the best?) supported leagues in both codes of rugby. I'm sure there's loads we could get from them.
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hugonaut
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by hugonaut »

blockhead wrote: May 9th, 2023, 11:39 pm
Keith wrote: May 7th, 2023, 6:09 pm
munster#1 wrote: May 7th, 2023, 1:25 pm

I can’t imagine many teams being happy to concede a big payday, which would be the case in your scenario.

Granted, after paying the rent on the Aviva, Leinster probably wouldn’t have made much off of Saturday’s game, but I’d imagine that most other teams would be delighted with it.
It's the only downside of being so successful, Leinster have had an abnormal amount of knockout games in the Aviva this year. No club team can shift the volume of tickets week after week, required to make an attendance in the Aviva look even respectable. Club rugby is a niche sport played in small stadiums.

These QFs don't sell, I was shocked to see plenty of empty seats at the Glasgow and Ulster games. We now basically have 5 days to sell tickets for two massive stadiums, there's simply not enough space in the calendar for this format.
When it was the Pro12 we played 22 League game + SF and Final. Now we play 18 games the QF, SF and Final. 3 games less for a finalist. In the Heino it takes 8 games to win the title instead of 9.
We are down 6 groups games over both tournaments, that's 6 weekends freed up. There should be plenty of space.

The weekends are all freed up in the international window. The biggest criticism of the Pro14 [as was] was that teams were too often understrength and there was no draw for the casual supporter. The URC as an organisation has changed the structure of the season to rectify that.

We played one game in November, one game in February and two games in March this season. In 2013-14 [22 game league regular season], we played three games in November [+2], three games in February [+2] and three games in March [+1]. In 2016-17 it was two in November [+1], three in February [+2] and two in March [+/-0].

I used to like the league the way it was. I'm not saying that I preferred it to what it has become, but I also liked it back then when it was different.

For example, the Irish 20s played @ Italy on Friday 10.02.17, Ireland played @ Italy on Saturday 11.02.17 and we played @ Treviso on Sunday 12.02.17.
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blockhead
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by blockhead »

Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Ruckedtobits »

blockhead wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:23 pm Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
Oh how I'd love to see Connacht create as many chances as they did last Friday and take 80% of them.
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by FtD »

blockhead wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:23 pm Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
Tickets start at €3.80, and the most expensive ones are <€19.
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blockhead
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by blockhead »

WalesOnline
Comparisons to the Irish teams as ususal
United Rugby Championship boss Martin Anayi insists Wales' four regions can be competitive over the coming seasons despite their playing budgets dropping to as low as £4.5million.
The game in Wales is in a parlous state with player wages getting aggressively pushed down while the regions' overall cost base will get reduced dramatically in a bid to make them more sustainable.
This has led to concerns they may be even less competitive next season especially. Three of the four Irish provinces spent roughly double the amount on their squads.
URC chief executive Anayi revealed he will meet with high-ranking figures in the Welsh game next week, chief executive Nigel Walker and PRB chair Malcolm Wall, to discuss the issues.
"They are going to give us a lot more detail about how is this going to work and the plan," he said.
"I think they see it as an opportunity to bring through the next generation of players in Wales. They feel like they've got a very strong generation to come through, and they need the opportunity to play.
"Personally I like that, and I think there's a good opportunity to do that post World Cup.

"With regards the comparison with the Irish we don't have oversight over how much they spend but just looking at their squad make-up it's to retain Irish talent in Ireland, rather than bringing in foreign imports which cost a lot of money.
"They do do that but very selectively, maybe three a season, and they do that really well.
"In Wales the opportunity is there to do that, to invest in Welsh players in Wales, and keep them in Wales.
Well said Martin.
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Ruckedtobits »

Ruckedtobits wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:31 pm
blockhead wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:23 pm Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
Oh how I'd love to see Connacht create as many chances as they did last Friday and take 80% of them.
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Ruckedtobits »

FtD wrote: May 11th, 2023, 9:29 pm
blockhead wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:23 pm Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
Tickets start at €3.80, and the most expensive ones are <€19.
We could probably fill Croke Park at those prices but we'd lose money.
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blockhead
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by blockhead »

FtD wrote: May 11th, 2023, 9:29 pm
blockhead wrote: May 11th, 2023, 5:23 pm Stormers have already shifted 35,000 tickets for the Connacht game, (which they had not expected to play at home), 5 days after having 45,000 in the the same stadium.
Getting tired of watching their team win the Stormers fans are not.
Tickets start at €3.80, and the most expensive ones are <€19.
E19 goes a fair bit down in Cape Town. Take you and your Lady out for a good night.
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blockhead
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by blockhead »

DHL Stormers: 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Angelo Davids, 13 Ruhan Nel, 12 Dan du Plessis, 11 Leolin Zas, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Herschel Jantjies, 8 Evan Roos, 7 Hacjivah Dayimani, 6 Willie Engelbrecht, 5 Ruben van Heerden, 4 Ben-Jason Dixon, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Joseph Dweba, 1 Steven Kitshoff (captain).
Replacements: 16 JJ Kotze, 17 Ali Vermaak, 18 Neethling Fouche, 19 Connor Evans, 20 Marcel Theunissen, 21 Paul de Wet, 22 Jean-Luc du Plessis, 23 Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu.
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jezzer
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by jezzer »

blockhead wrote: May 12th, 2023, 11:34 am DHL Stormers: 15 Damian Willemse, 14 Angelo Davids, 13 Ruhan Nel, 12 Dan du Plessis, 11 Leolin Zas, 10 Manie Libbok, 9 Herschel Jantjies, 8 Evan Roos, 7 Hacjivah Dayimani, 6 Willie Engelbrecht, 5 Ruben van Heerden, 4 Ben-Jason Dixon, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Joseph Dweba, 1 Steven Kitshoff (captain).
Replacements: 16 JJ Kotze, 17 Ali Vermaak, 18 Neethling Fouche, 19 Connor Evans, 20 Marcel Theunissen, 21 Paul de Wet, 22 Jean-Luc du Plessis, 23 Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu.
Weak.
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Xanthippe
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Xanthippe »

What do we think about this?
Chris Jones, BBC rugby union correspondent wrote:
United Rugby Championship exploring draft system to improve competition

The United Rugby Championship is exploring a form of draft system to improve competitiveness across the league.

Italian side Zebre lost all 18 games this season as they finished bottom of the table in consecutive seasons.

Leinster topped the table after the regular season and only lost twice - including the semi-final to Munster.

Chief executive Martin Anayi says the URC needs to "think laterally" about improving the weaker teams' standards.

"There might be an ability to draft in players from the other unions who aren't getting game time," he told BBC 5 Live. "That is 100% [a conversation]."

One of the biggest defeats Zebre suffered this season came at the hands of the Bulls, who beat them 78-12. The Dragons, who finished second from bottom, only managed to win four games from 18.

Anayi says a lack of jeopardy at the bottom of the table is a result of a "closed league", one without promotion and relegation.

"There is a natural filter system to relegation, one team goes down and the team that comes up is full of expectation because they have won the league below; we don't have that in a closed league," he added.

"Our job is to find ways of helping the likes of Zebre and the Italian Federation to make them more competitive.

"In American sports they have a system for doing that, the draft system. We don't have that, so we need to think a bit more laterally about that question.

"Ireland have so much talent they are trying to work out how does everybody get game-time, while Scotland have two teams so that creates a bottleneck for them.

"So those are avenues we are trying to explore. We are setting up a high-performance think-tank to help us with that question, from a league-wide point of view.

"Zebre has been at the bottom of our table for a wee while and we need to try and do something to help them."

Anayi says there is enough collaboration to ensure a draft system could work, without concerns from other unions about improving rival teams.

"We have that collaboration at union level. They see the league is better and more commercially viable if all the teams are competitive," he added.

"And secondly they want the Six Nations to be competitive. Our unions can see that helping Zebre is a good thing both for the league and also for the Six Nations."

'League needs different winners'
Leinster have dominated the league in recent years, winning four titles in row between 2018 and 2021, but that monopoly has been broken over the past two seasons.

While the Dublin-based team only lost once in the regular campaign, they were beaten in the semi-final by Munster, a year on from losing a last-four meeting against Bulls.

"They have been beaten twice in play-off format in the URC, and that's what we need, not for Leinster to be beaten, but to have jeopardy," Anayi added.

"We are going to have a team that isn't Leinster winning it [for the last] two years, after they won the previous four.

"I think it's good to see a different name on the trophy each year."

Stormers host Munster in this year's showpiece, in front of a sell-out crowd in Cape Town, with Anayi praising the impact of the South African franchises on and off the field.

"They have just been great for the tournament," he said.

"And it's built in South Africa too. [At first] they didn't know what URC was, they didn't know what the Champions Cup or the Challenge Cup was, but we've seen the Stormers build from 20,000 [attendances], to 30,000, through 40,000 and now we have got our first sell-out of 57,000.

"It's been an amazing couple of years."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65694650
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The Doc
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by The Doc »

Xanthippe wrote: May 24th, 2023, 2:56 pm What do we think about this?
Chris Jones, BBC rugby union correspondent wrote:
United Rugby Championship exploring draft system to improve competition

The United Rugby Championship is exploring a form of draft system to improve competitiveness across the league.

Italian side Zebre lost all 18 games this season as they finished bottom of the table in consecutive seasons.

Leinster topped the table after the regular season and only lost twice - including the semi-final to Munster.

Chief executive Martin Anayi says the URC needs to "think laterally" about improving the weaker teams' standards.

"There might be an ability to draft in players from the other unions who aren't getting game time," he told BBC 5 Live. "That is 100% [a conversation]."

One of the biggest defeats Zebre suffered this season came at the hands of the Bulls, who beat them 78-12. The Dragons, who finished second from bottom, only managed to win four games from 18.

Anayi says a lack of jeopardy at the bottom of the table is a result of a "closed league", one without promotion and relegation.

"There is a natural filter system to relegation, one team goes down and the team that comes up is full of expectation because they have won the league below; we don't have that in a closed league," he added.

"Our job is to find ways of helping the likes of Zebre and the Italian Federation to make them more competitive.

"In American sports they have a system for doing that, the draft system. We don't have that, so we need to think a bit more laterally about that question.

"Ireland have so much talent they are trying to work out how does everybody get game-time, while Scotland have two teams so that creates a bottleneck for them.

"So those are avenues we are trying to explore. We are setting up a high-performance think-tank to help us with that question, from a league-wide point of view.

"Zebre has been at the bottom of our table for a wee while and we need to try and do something to help them."

Anayi says there is enough collaboration to ensure a draft system could work, without concerns from other unions about improving rival teams.

"We have that collaboration at union level. They see the league is better and more commercially viable if all the teams are competitive," he added.

"And secondly they want the Six Nations to be competitive. Our unions can see that helping Zebre is a good thing both for the league and also for the Six Nations."

'League needs different winners'
Leinster have dominated the league in recent years, winning four titles in row between 2018 and 2021, but that monopoly has been broken over the past two seasons.

While the Dublin-based team only lost once in the regular campaign, they were beaten in the semi-final by Munster, a year on from losing a last-four meeting against Bulls.

"They have been beaten twice in play-off format in the URC, and that's what we need, not for Leinster to be beaten, but to have jeopardy," Anayi added.

"We are going to have a team that isn't Leinster winning it [for the last] two years, after they won the previous four.

"I think it's good to see a different name on the trophy each year."

Stormers host Munster in this year's showpiece, in front of a sell-out crowd in Cape Town, with Anayi praising the impact of the South African franchises on and off the field.

"They have just been great for the tournament," he said.

"And it's built in South Africa too. [At first] they didn't know what URC was, they didn't know what the Champions Cup or the Challenge Cup was, but we've seen the Stormers build from 20,000 [attendances], to 30,000, through 40,000 and now we have got our first sell-out of 57,000.

"It's been an amazing couple of years."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65694650
Not a lot. I know where he's coming from with the comparison to another franchise sport. But I don't think he gets the "local" element for many players (at least in Ireland). There are many players in the Leinster squad who I don't think would make as much an impact in other systems. A significant part of the success for Leinster is the squad & system which means players can slot in quite easily. Dropping them into another system isn't a guarantee of anything
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Dave Cahill »

I think Martin needs to stay away from the paint thinners
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Xanthippe »

Dave Cahill wrote: May 24th, 2023, 3:20 pm I think Martin needs to stay away from the paint thinners
I really think we need to have a LIKE function or a THUMBS UP option on the board for posts like this
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by cormac »

Some people say there are no bad ideas. Those people are very wrong.
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leinsterforever
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by leinsterforever »

As good as Leinster's strength-in-depth is I don't think there are many players who are getting limited enough gametime to make a move worthwhile who would be good enough to make a real difference to a Zebre. Look at the recent Bulls result. Is a Max O'Reilly really going to make a big difference to Zebre or the Dragons? I don't see it being a large-scale success story. It would be here and there at best. There could be a few gems for foreign league teams to pick up. Plus if some of the guys with the 7s want to get back into 15s it might be the best route. Is there space for Dardis or Jack Kelly at any of the provinces?

One thing I've thought for a while is that the IRFU should consider for selection IQ players playing in the league for non-Irish sides. The other URC countries (unlike England and France) don't have the money to lure away the top players, so it wouldn't be a dangerous change in policy as I see it. And it might improve the chances of more Tadhg Beirne stories.
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Oldschoolsocks »

Xanthippe wrote: May 24th, 2023, 2:56 pm What do we think about this?
Chris Jones, BBC rugby union correspondent wrote:
United Rugby Championship exploring draft system to improve competition

The United Rugby Championship is exploring a form of draft system to improve competitiveness across the league.

Italian side Zebre lost all 18 games this season as they finished bottom of the table in consecutive seasons.

Leinster topped the table after the regular season and only lost twice - including the semi-final to Munster.

Chief executive Martin Anayi says the URC needs to "think laterally" about improving the weaker teams' standards.

"There might be an ability to draft in players from the other unions who aren't getting game time," he told BBC 5 Live. "That is 100% [a conversation]."

One of the biggest defeats Zebre suffered this season came at the hands of the Bulls, who beat them 78-12. The Dragons, who finished second from bottom, only managed to win four games from 18.

Anayi says a lack of jeopardy at the bottom of the table is a result of a "closed league", one without promotion and relegation.

"There is a natural filter system to relegation, one team goes down and the team that comes up is full of expectation because they have won the league below; we don't have that in a closed league," he added.

"Our job is to find ways of helping the likes of Zebre and the Italian Federation to make them more competitive.

"In American sports they have a system for doing that, the draft system. We don't have that, so we need to think a bit more laterally about that question.

"Ireland have so much talent they are trying to work out how does everybody get game-time, while Scotland have two teams so that creates a bottleneck for them.

"So those are avenues we are trying to explore. We are setting up a high-performance think-tank to help us with that question, from a league-wide point of view.

"Zebre has been at the bottom of our table for a wee while and we need to try and do something to help them."

Anayi says there is enough collaboration to ensure a draft system could work, without concerns from other unions about improving rival teams.

"We have that collaboration at union level. They see the league is better and more commercially viable if all the teams are competitive," he added.

"And secondly they want the Six Nations to be competitive. Our unions can see that helping Zebre is a good thing both for the league and also for the Six Nations."

'League needs different winners'
Leinster have dominated the league in recent years, winning four titles in row between 2018 and 2021, but that monopoly has been broken over the past two seasons.

While the Dublin-based team only lost once in the regular campaign, they were beaten in the semi-final by Munster, a year on from losing a last-four meeting against Bulls.

"They have been beaten twice in play-off format in the URC, and that's what we need, not for Leinster to be beaten, but to have jeopardy," Anayi added.

"We are going to have a team that isn't Leinster winning it [for the last] two years, after they won the previous four.

"I think it's good to see a different name on the trophy each year."

Stormers host Munster in this year's showpiece, in front of a sell-out crowd in Cape Town, with Anayi praising the impact of the South African franchises on and off the field.

"They have just been great for the tournament," he said.

"And it's built in South Africa too. [At first] they didn't know what URC was, they didn't know what the Champions Cup or the Challenge Cup was, but we've seen the Stormers build from 20,000 [attendances], to 30,000, through 40,000 and now we have got our first sell-out of 57,000.

"It's been an amazing couple of years."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65694650
One one hand this is one of the stoopidist ideas I have ever seen. We use the league to build strength and depth in the Irish system, this is how the other member unions should be approaching it.

On the other hand there’s four fingers and a thumb…
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Xanthippe
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Re: URC 22/23

Post by Xanthippe »

So at what point in their development and at what age do players become eligible for this 'draft' - we already have lads coming out of school who don't make the Leinster academy who won't move to another province so how do you get them to move to another country?

Are they going to cap the number of players each team is allowed to have (including Academy and sub academy) because otherwise how is 'Max O'Reilly' to be persuaded that he is better off playing for the shittest team in the league rather than staying at home with his friends and family and being coached by the best team in the league?

I really can't see any possible way they can make this work (hopefully!!)
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